BoxingScene's members top 10 P4P all-time

[Yogi]

Umm, Slickster, I remember reading that before and that's only a fictional writeup of someone's idea of what would have happened had Johnson and Langford had had a rematch for the title. That wasn' their actual fight sorry to say.

I have a couple of writeups from the day-afters from their actual fight from Apr of 1906 that I could type out later, I guess, although it might have to wait for tomorrow.

For the record, though, based on these couple of fight reports, Johnson seemed to have a clear (not dominating) edge in the fight with two knockdowns credited to him in the sixth, but Langford was said to have been game himself and also had a few moments during the fight. For a n example, after the sixth round ended Johnson was said to have been "in as bad a way as Langford" after Langford "came back at Johnson quickly" after the second knockdown that round.

[Yogi]

Now the article that stated Johnson had to ease up on the beating was actually Boxrec. One day i was browsing through as i was looking through Johnson's resume and wanted to find out more on the fight. Here is the article.

BoxRec blows when it comes to sources on those old fights, but that's a story for another day.

[slicksouthpaw16]

Umm, Slickster, I remember reading that before and that's only a fictional writeup of someone's idea of what would have happened had Johnson and Langford had had a rematch for the title. That wasn' their actual fight sorry to say.

I have a couple of writeups from the day-afters from their actual fight from Apr of 1906 that I could type out later, I guess, although it might have to wait for tomorrow.

For the record, though, based on these couple of fight reports, Johnson seemed to have a clear (not dominating) edge in the fight with two knockdowns credited to him in the sixth, but Langford was said to have been game himself and also had a few moments during the fight. For a n example, after the sixth round ended Johnson was said to have been "in as bad a way as Langford" after Langford "came back at Johnson quickly" after the second knockdown that round.

Thats the way it seemed in the article that i posted above as well. Johnson winning a clear but competitive decision. It couldn't have been that far off though but not exactly accurate. I really don't think any source is very accurate on this fight.

[slicksouthpaw16]

This is some good information for anyone that wants to know a bit about Langford. Just a peice that talks about some of his main accomplishments and oppositions. Another article from Wiki.

''Langford's most memorable fights were his numerous encounters against fellow Black boxers Sam McVey, Battling Jim Johnson and Joe Jeanette, who all experienced similar barriers in their fighting careers. Langford fought Harry Wills on 22 separate occasions. Langford defeated lightweight champion Joe Gans in 1903, drew with welterweight champion Joe Walcott in 1904, lost to future world heavyweight champion Jack Johnson in 1906, and knocked out former light-heavyweight champion Philadelphia Jack O'Brien in 1911, with scores of contender fights in between. His last fight was in 1926, when his failing eyesight finally forced him to retire.

In 1923, Sam Langford fought and won Boxing's last "fight to the finish" for the Mexican Heavyweight title.

Films exist of Langford fighting Fireman Jim Flynn and Bill Lang. One story characterizing his career involved Langford walking out for the 8th round and touching gloves with his opponent. "What's the matter, Sam, it ain't the last round!" said his mystified opponent. "Tis for you son," said Langford, who promptly knocked his opponent out.''

[KostyaTszyu44]

Sugar Ray Robinson
Henry Armstrong
Muhammad Ali
Roy Jones Jr (his lack of top notch opposition outside of toney and hopkins hurts him but his talent is unquestionably top notch, and he does have those two wins, along with many other wins versus top notch opponents.
Harry Greb
Sugar Ray Leonard
Roberto Duran
Salvador Sanchez
Sam Langford
Floyd Mayweather.

i wish i could put sanchez in my top ten but he didnt do quite enough as he died at 23.....he beat nelson, lopez and a few others but yeah top ten p4p you need to do more.....if it was an ability wise top ten p4p he would be in it

[Yogi]

I really don't think any source is very accurate on this fight.

So I take it you're not going to believe Johnson's own account of the fight, as written in 1910 and printed in his French biography 'Mes Combat'?

"I found him one of the toughest adversaries I ever met in the ring. I weighed 190 and langford only 138. In the second round the little negro hit me on the jaw with a terrible right hand and I fell as if upended by a cannon ball. In all my pugilistic career, not before and not afterwards, have I recieved a blow that struck me with such force. It was all I could just to get back on my feet just as the referee was about to count 'Ten!' I made it, but I assure you that I felt the effects of that punch for the rest of the fight. I recovered but I would have to take my hat off to him if I hadn't had so much science at my comment. In the fifteenth round I was declared the winner on points." - Jack Johnson

Johnson seemed to be quite complimentary of Langford with those words about their fight, but maybe that was because he felt bad about backing out of his signed agreement to face Langford again for the title in London and exaggerated some. Or maybe Johnson, as Gunboat Smith described in 'In This Corner', felt bad for this incident;

"There was a lot of ill feelings between Johnson and Sam Langford. He'd never fight Langford. They fought once, and they put up a hell of a fight, Johnson and Langford. I don't know who would have won that fight if they ever fought. And there was always ill feelings between those two that the public didn't know nothing about. They hated one another like rat poison. When Johnson drove from Jeffries' place he met Langford on the road. He was always a crazy driver. He liked fast cars, Johnson did. He took the wheel and threw dirt right in Langford's face. If Sam Langford had a gun, he'd a killed him right there." - Gunboat Smith

Ah, I don't know why I typed out that story from the Gunboat, besides that it is somewhat interesting.

Anyways, if you hear two divided opinions on how something went or what happened, there's that old saying that "the truth lies somewhere in the middle". I don't neccessarily believe Langford gave Johnson a really tough fight, nor do I believe that Johnson gave him a bad and dominating beating throughout. Like I stated, I believe it was a clear enough win for Johnson over 15 rounds, though, as illustrated by what I assume are the neutral opinions written in these two fight reports.

[Yogi]

BoxRec blows when it comes to sources on those old fights, but that's a story for another day.

Some examples of this.

BoxRec lists Langford's fight with Joe Jeannette on Sept 1st, 1908 as a draw for some reason based on a single and inaccurate (i.e. saying that Jeannette was downed in both the first and second) account by the NY Times, but there were plenty of other reports of the fight out of New York, and none of the other ones thought it was a draw;

"That negro fighters do not make the same fierce battle against one of their own color as they do against white opponents was again demonstrated in the contest between Sam Langford and Joe Jeannette, the colored fighters, at the stag of the National A. C. stag last night. In the six rounds they fought, Langford easily had the better in giving Jeannette a good walloping, and flooring him three times - twice in the opening round, and again in the fifth session." - New York Evening World, Sept 2nd, 1908

"Sam Langford of Boston, the colored pugilist who wants to meet the winner of the Ketchel-papke fight for the middleweight championship of the world, defeated Joe Jeannette, a dusky heavyweight of this city, in a grueling six round bout at the National Athletic Club in East Twenty-fourth street last night." - New York Sun, Sept 2nd, 1908

"New York, Sept 2--Sam Langford, of Boston, visited us again last night, and broke into smithereens Joe Jeannette's hopes of a championship. Sam has been a hope buster for the last year around here, having cracked quite a few, among them the hopes of James Barry, of Chicago, Jawn Wille, of Chicago, and Tony Ross, of Pennsylvania." - Washington Times, Sept 2nd, 1908, who went on to basically say Jeannette lost, as per their "if Mr. Jeannette is breathing easily today", and him showing gameness "but aside from that little else can be said in his favor".

There were other reports too, that stated Langford got the best of the fight (such as the Washington Herald, Boston Daily Globe, Hartford Courant, Trenton Evening Times, etc.), and all the reports are accurate to each other in stating that Langford knocked him down twice in the first, and also backed off some after scoring the second knockdown in the first.

I'll get to some more of their mysterious ways tomorrow, starting with that other NY Times decision they gave to Jim Barry over Langford in Sept 25, 1907, which is, once again, a puzzling source selection. Could also list shed some light to their three missing "ND" that they have for the Langford/Barry fights right after that, which going off the papers of the time, were two wins for Langford, and the other one a draw or even fight based on one source. I also find it puzzling that they select a source from nearly a year after the fact (and that from halfway across the country) in regards to the Feb, 1910 between Langford and Fireman Flynn when there are perfectly good sources from the day after the fight and from the fight's location.

[Sweet Pea 50]

1.SRR
2.Armstrong
3.Ali
4.Pep
5.Louis
6.SRL
7.Duran
8.Hagler
9.Greb
10.Pea

[StarshipTrooper]

Yogi, Slicksouthpaw, great work and great research!

Poet

[Hearnsz]

Wow! Thanks for the info.
Pretty incredible how the 170cm Sam Langford went from lightweight to heavyweight and beat champions throughout the divisions.
When you do research about Langford it will of course seem that Jack Johnson ducked him after their fight but I think if you hear Johnson's part of the story it will be more reasonable. No offence to Langford but Johnson was pretty good in knocking out smaller opponents. I saw a video of him bullying Tommy Burns and Fireman Jim Flynn. He just held them down with one arm on their head and called them names.

I didn't mean he never won A title btw, I meant world championship title.
Thanks again for the info but some of the stuff is difficult to read for me as I'm not englishspeaking ...