Duran Leonard Hearns Hagler

[SABBATH]

Wow i am dealing with some of the most ignorant and false information ever. That is what you get when your on this site, vs Cyberboxing.com with people who have opinions but knowledge also, and the level of debates surpasses the ****** as this is.

Pink in case you didn't know, LondonRingRules was banned from CBZ awhile back for the same type of misrepresentations designed to push an agenda and piss others off. He posted under the name Roberto Aqui and he might as well cut and paste the rhetoric he spewed on that site since low-balling Leonard is one of his favourite topics.

Not quite sure if he's ******ed but likely a few bricks short a full load. You're wasting your time presenting facts or references for your points since he sees only what his eyes want him to see.

[StarshipTrooper]

Pink in case you didn't know, LondonRingRules was banned from CBZ awhile back for the same type of misrepresentations designed to push an agenda and piss others off. He posted under the name Roberto Aqui and he might as well cut and paste the rhetoric he spewed on that site since low-balling Leonard is one of his favourite topics.

Not quite sure if he's ******ed but likely a few bricks short a full load. You're wasting your time presenting facts or references for your points since he sees only what his eyes want him to see.

The fecker hates Ali too and that's another one of his agendas: Discrediting "The Greatest".

Poet

[StarshipTrooper]

Many people like a fighter....and the rocky babloa style of fighter at that. Duran embodied the smarts, the courage (except for one night), the savagery, the success (4 titles, 100 wins,) and the wins vs Buchanon, Leonard were his biggest two. Barkly and Moore were ok but t hey were not the level of these two fighters.

Now that being said, I also believe that duran with out a doubt is one the best fighters ever. It is funny I have always said he is a great fighter, but I just dont think the media and more importantly older experts who historically favor the old time fighters, give modern fighters the credit they deserve.

Lets examine.

No doubt Durans 70 wins at lightweight is a great accomplishment. However, when you go back and look at the quality of hisl lightweight resume, some serious questions arise. What you have is a fighter that for over 70% of his fights were vs subpar fighters. This again is horrible. There is no way that Leonard could get off the hook for fighting a fighter with a 0-3 record (get this point london rules, you keep on forgetting this) after he became a champion. NO WAY.

I honestly think that at the time of Durans dominance at lightweight then he movedup and beat leonard, I think he did move up into the top 10-15. However we have had fighters since then that are better than he. However, older fans who either are latino fight fans, grew up on Duran leonard etc,,, or those like bert sugar who simply do not give any current fighters their just due.

Look at Roy Jones, or Mayweather. These two are not fan favorits, the did not fight everyone. However many duran fans forget he never faced Arguello, or Pryor. Durna dominated the lightweight division for a decade, hmmm so did Hopkins, and Roy beat him,rather easily at his prime, and he beat every top middlewieght while he was their in convincing manner. Unlike Duran Roy moved up and beat the champions, Duran moved up and got repeately ass whipings.

Hmmm the very weak arguement that Duran was not prime, simply holds no water. None, only if you want to give Duran a different criteria than others. Duran wa 29 when he faced leoanrd. lost many fights before age 33. Roy beat Toney and Hopkins by age 28, and by age 33 had never...I repeat NEVER been bested inside a ring. Duran effectivly had amateur fights as a professional, which if it is before he was a champion is okay, but people need to recognize that fact. Jones had a long a brilliant amateur career. The reason why I point this out, is roy had half as many professionals fights, but he kept on fighting progressivly better opponents. Duran had 100 professional fights but as pointed out earlier he had at least 40 fights that MODERN day fighters would get destroyed by the media for fighting. Could you imagine Roy facing a figter with a record of 10-11?

Those like panamiac refuse to acknowledge the accomplishments of other fighters, and rate duran on a different scale. What duran did, Mayweather has done, exept for his win vs leonard. Leonard himself only had 40 fights, but does duran have 4 victories better than leoanrds...Ray also fought progressivly better opponents and had 5 titles...Roy had 4-5 titles too.

Older fighter fans simply need to stop hating on what the younger fighters are doing. Give them credit.

Oh yes, us old fogies just HATE "modern" fighters don't we? I judge fighters on a case by case basis. When a "modern" fighter deserves credit I give it to him. Example: I've said emphatically that Bernard Hopkins is a top-five all time Middleweight who could hang with anyone in the history of the division. On the other hand, the Heavyweight division today is a joke and the top Heavyweights today MIGHT have found work as sparring partners for the top Heavyweights of the 70s but they certainly wouldn't deserve any title shots. So really, it all boils down to how good a fighter is: If he's a top-notch fighter he'll get his due; if he sucks people will say so. I don't worship at the alter of "modern" as some posters due (or any other alter for that matter) and I laugh at people with wee brains who think that "new" equals "better". It doesn't. My position has always been that what era a fighter fought in is irrelivent: A fighter should be judged on his own merits without any foolish biases someone may have in favor or against some arbitrary period of time.

Poet

[LondonRingRules]

Yes Duran is ranked above leoanard on most polls. I simply disagree. I offer facts to back up my position, but it is still an opinion and i respect yours and other positions. However, I simply do not get why people rank some on one scale and others on a different scale.

Get it.

** Well, you claim I may be "retarted," and I don't have a minder to explain things to my like your little buddy Ozzie Jr.

Fair enough. You've come around and given Duran a little respect for his career. There may not be any lightweights that could ever come up after 75 or so fights from lightweight and beat the Leonard that Duran beat in such a dramatic and comprehensive fashion.

I've always acknowledged Leonard's top shelf talent and natural attributes. Every fighter has weaknesses though, and Leonard's was that his ego and arrogance became bigger than his prodigious talents. It is part of the record that Leonard was essentially done after a terrible battle with Hearns that he prevailed in. That fight altered him physically and mentally.

Aaron Pryor is one of my favorites, but he too had about the same length of career as Leonard for some of the same problems, the detached retinas. I rank him very high as a p4p peak fighter, better than Ray even, but his career takes a back seat to many in his division because of it's brevity.

That's my point. Same deal with Tyson, a brilliant heavy, but gone before he ever really hit his prime. Luther McCarty, same deal, a brilliant young heavy with a more tragic end than the others. Jim Jeffries, easily as talented as any heavy in history, just a very short career packed full of HOFers before packing it in for the farm. Tony Ayala, the names are endless, and certainly not all in Leonard's class, but some are.

Duran, this guy cut from another cloth of another world. Like I say, I have some consensus on this, just as you have some consensus on Leonard's rank.

Sorry if I get carried away with some fun with you. Since Boozo left the site it's been a bit lonely for me trying to fill the vacuum and I couldn't help but notice that you seem to come out of the woodwork with every Duran post. Sorta like this junior highschooler Oz Jr seems to have been stalking me the past 6 months. Really funny nonsense these poor chaps make up. Sorta like when I came on this board oh so many moons ago I was accused of abusing viagra by a lad who writes about boxing now, but back then all he could do was breath fire for his homie, PacMan.

I don't take any of it personally as I've noticed a lot of these little devils probably don't even shave yet and newly experienced hormones tend to overamp their emotions.

Cheers now, and remember to stay in shape so I don't have such a big target!

[wpink1]

Sabbath....thanks for your insights..however I doubt London Rules is the CBZ poster Aqui, as this guy hated Leoanrd or any fighter who was not latin. I had many wars with him on CBZ.

London..good points and no problem with the fun...Just wantd to set the record straight on my physical being.

Now for Pryor being ranked above Leonard. Hmmmmmm Pryor beat who? A 36 80 fight 5 loss Cerventes, then a great great 130-135 pound Arguello, who moved up one weight to many and actually was kneck and kneck with Pryor until the mysterious black bottle in the first fight. I do think Pryor was a beast, but he never faced the opposition to prove it. Not all his fault, I agree, but fighters are judged on what the do inside the ring for all to see, Pryor has nothing to verify his greatness. Maybe Duran and he should have gotten together...Wow what a fight that would have been!!


Another false statment about hearns taking his toll on Leonard. Get the sports illustrated that came out the week before their fight title the showdown...Hearns vs Leoanrd their strategy and it actually picked Ray to win. In that magazine, Leoanards camp revealed that Ray had damaged his eye very seriously by a elbow in his workouts prior to the hearns fight. Hearns did redamage this eyes, but the damage was already done. Also, leoanrd had a fight with finch after hearns where his speed, timing, and power was just at his peak..early round KO..

Yes Ray short career is a mark against him. You can not rank him up there with Ali, Robinson, etc..Fighters that not only beat the top fighters but also had more fights. Duran had more fights ( many very quetionable), and some very good wins, however Leonard beat better fighters than duran did. So how do you compare the two. I can see those that say Duran moved up and beat leonard. I can see that, it has meat, I dont think in montreal Leoanrd fighting that fight would have been on his feet at the end of the fight had it been at lightweight. However, Duran could not adapt to other styles like Leoanrd could. Leonard beat a boxer, Benitez, a slugger Hearns, a bigger boxer/fighter Hagler, a a pressure brawler Duran.... All of these fighters at around their peak (hagler was 32)...... Duran LOST to all of these fighters...The quality of fighters duran beat at lightweight, I honestly think Leonard would beat on his way to a sparring session.

[Nostromo]

To wpink1: Thanks for your reply on why you think Duran is overrated. I happen to disagree with your position, as I think that Duran's longevity, that Dempsey-like "jungle intensity" he brought to the ring and his achievements far overshadow his shortcomings, including "no Mas." His high regard in boxing circles is well-deserved.

On a seperate issue, you keep referring to someone named panamiac. I checked the member list and there's no one by that (user)name. The closest to that would be Panamaniac. Is that who you mean?

[vBTube]BdCeA-FpdiI[/vBTube]

[wpink1]

Nostromo,,,yes your right about pan?? however you want to spell his name. As for Duran, his longivity and dominance over lightweight is the very reason along with his win over Leonard, why I rate him one of the best ever. I will repeat, I think he is one of the best ever. The debate stems from me not believing he is a top 10 or better than Jones, or Leonard.

[Hearnsz]

I also wouldn't put Duran in my top10 p4p to be honest...
He's carreer isn't far as impressive as Willie Pep's imo... I don't mainly look at their carreer though, just at skills, power, speed and reflexes.

[Yogi]

Pink in case you didn't know, LondonRingRules was banned from CBZ awhile back for the same type of misrepresentations designed to push an agenda and piss others off. He posted under the name Roberto Aqui and he might as well cut and paste the rhetoric he spewed on that site since low-balling Leonard is one of his favourite topics.

Not quite sure if he's ******ed but likely a few bricks short a full load. You're wasting your time presenting facts or references for your points since he sees only what his eyes want him to see.

Holy hell, you're still posting here?

[SABBATH]

Holy hell, you're still posting here?

Not really...only when I'm bored or drunk. You know where I hang my hat!