Duran Leonard Hearns Hagler

[wpink1]

post you have to be the most ignorant fan or close to it of all time. Fighters are not judged on what they do north of their natural weight..hmmmmm You mean Duran is not judged by this, but others are. Mayweather is judged everytime he steps into the ring..and I believe he started at 128. Mosley was undefeated until he reached welter, Duran was not undefeated at his natural weight, now was he...hmmmmm.

I know that many regard Duran as the greatest lightweight or close to it, but that does not mean I have to, and I wont. He IMO is overrated, when you look at his resume at lightweight, something you and Panamaic and other Duran fans...(funny to me to repeatedly see this) refuse to do. You refused to accept that he beat fighters that Leonard, and others would not even use in sparring sessions..hmmm somethintg like a record of 0-3-1, when he was a champion...what a joke.

As for Leonard...I guess you forget or have your blinders own to the fact that He was retired for most part of 5 years, before stepping and up beat hagler. That upset is regarded as one of the greatest upsets in boxing history. Hmmmm..

I speak the facts, you duran fans like to avoid his resume at lilghtweight, or the fact that as he moved up he got his ass whipped, when others who are being judged on this, and moved up at the same age, and had long amateur careers, had much more successful trips up the weight class.

[Panamaniac]

Most boxing historians consider Duran to be the greatest Lightweight ever. That's not enough for you? I would think that people who are experts when it comes to boxing ought to carry SOME weight.

We do NOT judge fighters based on how they did when they went up in weight. It may have SOME consideration but for the most part fighters are judged by how the did at their best weight. By your criteria Hagler was nothing because he spent his entire career at Middleweight. Hearns isn't judged by what he did at Middleweight and Lightheavyweight. His high standing is solely based on what he did at Welterweight. I really think you need to reavaluate how you go about judging fighters.

Poet

PS. Nothing Leonard did post Welterweight was anything to hang his hat on: A gift draw in the second Hearns fight, barely eeking out a past it Hagler, TKOing a tomato can Lightheavyweight in Lalonde, and Norris and Camacho. Need anymore examples?

Nice try, pal, but you can't reason with this one-trick pony, whose sole mission in life is to disparage the legend of Roberto Duran. It would be less of an excercise in futility to shout at a brick wall! He's got such a hard-on for Duran, he lurks these forums for any chance to repeat the same old vitriolic drivel time and again...

[TheGreatA]

He IMO is overrated, when you look at his resume at lightweight, something you and Panamaic and other Duran fans...(funny to me to repeatedly see this) refuse to do. You refused to accept that he beat fighters that Leonard, and others would not even use in sparring sessions..hmmm somethintg like a record of 0-3-1, when he was a champion...what a joke.

Duran did beat some tomato cans at LW but he also beat many top fighters.
You cannot ignore that.

Ken Buchanan, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Esteban DeJesus, Guts Ishimatsu, Saoul Mamby, Ernesto Marcel, all champions and that's not counting the various top LW contenders Duran fought such as Hector Thompson and Edwin Viruet...

[wpink1]

No panamiac, your just a duran nut hugger whole sole purpose in life is to ignore facts, and try to be a super delegate for Duran.

The Machine. Your absolutely correct, Duran beat many top fighters including Leonard at Welter, then Barkly, and Moore. My challenge is that Duran nut huggers refuse to point out or skip over the fact that Those names mentioned are no better than who Mayweather faced (except for leonard). Out of those 70 fights at lightweight I do not think Ken Buchanan, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Esteban DeJesus, Guts Ishimatsu, Saoul Mamby, Ernesto Marcel, equalts the level of Mayweathers victories, or Whitackers, or Leonards. Duran dominated good to average fighters,,,,then a whole slew of fighters he should be embarrased to have on his resume. Then

I challenge Panamiac ( you notice he punks out each time I ask him to go respond to the facts) to go back and review Durans lightweight resume, and the list of fighters he faced after he became champion, and do two things ..and tell us if his resume is favorable to a Leonard or Mayweather etc....

First
Look at the Fights Duran had after he was a champion, and tell us what other champion has fought fighters with losing records when he was a champion....Did Mayweather, Did Leonard, Did Whitacker, Did Dlh, Did Mosley.....No but Duran did all the time>

2. In panamiacs veiw and some others..We should stop revewing Duran at Lightweight (but judge all other fighters on wins and losses after the move up...hmmmm), but hmmmm give him credit for beating Leonard Moore and Barkley. Thus handpicking the fights we wont. In my view you should stop reviwing Duran at roughtly the same age that you do others, to make it consistent, and this age is rougly around the age of 33.

Duran had great fights and is a all time great, but you have to look at everything until he lost relevancy. I think that the after Hagler, Hearns, he became just a fighter fighting for money. I dont honeslty place any value on the 3rd Leonard fiight. So in my opinion they are 1-1. However, What if Mayweather got knocked out by Judah or DLH, would we be saying it does not matter because we only ratehim on what he did in the lower weights? No, we review everything. What about Roy, hell he beat way better competition than Duran faced, and Roy was (outsideof DQ) undefeated until age 34-36. he moved up, but many people discuss Tarver fight. How is that consistent. Beating Toney, and Hopkins then winning the heavywieght title (40 pound jump in weight) is better than Durans victories outside of Leonard.

I have noproblem with Duran being called Great, as I call him great, but its a joke when people get on here and try to distort the truth, avoid the facts that I position (boxrec.com) which shows his horriblly weak level of competion that no modern day champion faces...(if Mayweather fought a fighter with a .500 record he would be ran off the continenal us).. Then refuse to acknowledge that others have had equal to or greater accomplishments than Duran has. To refuse to point out he got whipped by Dejesus at lightweight and repeatedly when he stepped up in class and weght at the age of 29 others have tried much more successfully, is distorting the truth, about the overrated Duran. Up here in the mainlane boxing gyms in Miami, many people laugh at how easily the great welters whipped his ass, in fact they were lining up to beat his ass! Look at the facts....

[ksjb85]

No panamiac, your just a duran nut hugger whole sole purpose in life is to ignore facts, and try to be a super delegate for Duran.

The Machine. Your absolutely correct, Duran beat many top fighters including Leonard at Welter, then Barkly, and Moore. My challenge is that Duran nut huggers refuse to point out or skip over the fact that Those names mentioned are no better than who Mayweather faced (except for leonard). Out of those 70 fights at lightweight I do not think Ken Buchanan, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Esteban DeJesus, Guts Ishimatsu, Saoul Mamby, Ernesto Marcel, equalts the level of Mayweathers victories, or Whitackers, or Leonards. Duran dominated good to average fighters,,,,then a whole slew of fighters he should be embarrased to have on his resume. Then

I challenge Panamiac ( you notice he punks out each time I ask him to go respond to the facts) to go back and review Durans lightweight resume, and the list of fighters he faced after he became champion, and do two things ..and tell us if his resume is favorable to a Leonard or Mayweather etc....

First
Look at the Fights Duran had after he was a champion, and tell us what other champion has fought fighters with losing records when he was a champion....Did Mayweather, Did Leonard, Did Whitacker, Did Dlh, Did Mosley.....No but Duran did all the time>

2. In panamiacs veiw and some others..We should stop revewing Duran at Lightweight (but judge all other fighters on wins and losses after the move up...hmmmm), but hmmmm give him credit for beating Leonard Moore and Barkley. Thus handpicking the fights we wont. In my view you should stop reviwing Duran at roughtly the same age that you do others, to make it consistent, and this age is rougly around the age of 33.

Duran had great fights and is a all time great, but you have to look at everything until he lost relevancy. I think that the after Hagler, Hearns, he became just a fighter fighting for money. I dont honeslty place any value on the 3rd Leonard fiight. So in my opinion they are 1-1. However, What if Mayweather got knocked out by Judah or DLH, would we be saying it does not matter because we only ratehim on what he did in the lower weights? No, we review everything. What about Roy, hell he beat way better competition than Duran faced, and Roy was (outsideof DQ) undefeated until age 34-36. he moved up, but many people discuss Tarver fight. How is that consistent. Beating Toney, and Hopkins then winning the heavywieght title (40 pound jump in weight) is better than Durans victories outside of Leonard.

I have noproblem with Duran being called Great, as I call him great, but its a joke when people get on here and try to distort the truth, avoid the facts that I position (boxrec.com) which shows his horriblly weak level of competion that no modern day champion faces...(if Mayweather fought a fighter with a .500 record he would be ran off the continenal us).. Then refuse to acknowledge that others have had equal to or greater accomplishments than Duran has. To refuse to point out he got whipped by Dejesus at lightweight and repeatedly when he stepped up in class and weght at the age of 29 others have tried much more successfully, is distorting the truth, about the overrated Duran. Up here in the mainlane boxing gyms in Miami, many people laugh at how easily the great welters whipped his ass, in fact they were lining up to beat his ass! Look at the facts....

is it really that serious?

point is, Duran fought in an era of fighters including himself, that will never be seen again. Benitez and Hearns fought Duran @ 154. that's 20 lbs above his natural weight. yet when Benitez loses to everybody after 1982, his fanboys try to forget about it like his career had no signifigance after that. He too, begin to get his ass handed to him once he moved up to a weight class he wasn't efficient in. The difference between Benitez and Duran is that Duran lost to great fighters once he moved up in weight in his 30's while Benitez got his ass whooped by guys like Hamsho, Moore,(who are good, but far from great) and somebody named matthew Hilton, while still in his 20's. after these ass beatings did he even have a signifigant victory? with Benitez it was all about defense and it showed once he started to fight bigger guys. duran had the same caliber of a defense, but knew how to be a great offensive fighter as well, ultimatley making his career far more relivant than Benitez...i give him credit for becoming champion @ 17, but i also look @ how Duran would beat the caliber of opponents he faced(outside of Hearns) easily. Antonio Cervantes, Duran would beat. Carlos Palomino? Duran did beat, imo more convincingly than Benitez did. Maurice Hope? no comment.

...Hearns you can argue a little bit more..but at the end of the day, he never had that career defining victory that took him to the next level. some people may argue Cuevas, but Duran would've kncoked him out the same way he did in 1983 whether he had his belt or not. beating a 33 year old Duran @ 154 lbs, which is Hearns best weight, @ his best age is not exactly great. The only thing great about it is that he knocked Duran out cold. There is no way Duran would've beaten him @ that weight no matter how hard he trained. ever. He beat Bentiez, i'll give him that, but then he get's knocked out by Leonard and Hagler after Duran fought both, beat one of them and fought all 15 with the other. then after his great victory to Hill in 1991 he easily gets owned against Barkley in their rubbermatch.

i agree with the fact that Duran can be overrated from time to time, but the point is, few lightweights if any could've moved through the ranks like Duran did and beaten the fighters that he did. when you think about it, most lightweights are finished by the time they hit 147. Chavez, whitaker,Mosley etc, would've never been able to Dominate guys like Moore and Barkley @ age 32 and 37...i also doubt that any of these guys would've jumped two weight-classes to beat Leonard at ANY type of fight.

[TheGreatA]

Out of those 70 fights at lightweight I do not think Ken Buchanan, Hiroshi Kobayashi, Esteban DeJesus, Guts Ishimatsu, Saoul Mamby, Ernesto Marcel, equalts the level of Mayweathers victories, or Whitackers, or Leonards.

But it's about his lightweight resume isn't it? There are few who compare to Duran at LW.

Whitaker was great at LW but wins over Haugen, Ramirez, Nelson and Paez are hardly any better than Duran's.
Duran also reigned as the champion for longer, he was the LW champion for 6 years! Only Benny Leonard's reign as the LW champion compares, he was the champion for 7 years.

Mayweather's LW resume obviously does not compare. His only good wins in his 4 fights at the weight were the two wins over JL Castillo, one which was controversial.

P4P it's all up to opinion.
If you put together Duran's great LW career, then his wins at WW over Palomino and Leonard, his wins at LMW over Cuevas and Davey Moore and his win at MW over Barkley, hell, even the win over former MW champion Jorge Castro when Duran was over 46 years old, that's a hell of a career.

Obviously you have to count in his losses to Leonard, Benitez, Hearns and even some average fighters, Duran was far from unbeatable at higher weights.

[wpink1]

KSJB and The Machine.... Great post.. I could not agree more. Its funny. In every post I have ever said about Duran I point out he is great. I truly believehe is one of the greatest not only lightweights but fighters ever. My only contention as you all have pointed out,is that he can be overrated. IMO he s over rated when he is stated as if he is a god, and unbeateable, then many Duran fans, hang on his win vs leonard then ignore his losses including when he quit.

I hope this is my last mention of this, but when some get on her and try to paint the picture as if he is head and shoulders above others, I have to set the record straight with FACTS, not opinions.

Would I favor Duran at his pime vs Any other lightweight, no. Remember Ray Robinson and Henry Armstrong were lightweights. Yes at Lightweight Duran may have campaigned longer than ohers, but the general topic is all time top pound per pound, so it takes into consideration what they did at their natural weight and as they move up the weight classes, up until around like age of around 33-35 When you consider this Duran is not a top 5 fighter.

Roy Jones IMO is one of the most underrated fighters of all time. He ranks up there. I dont like that he did not fight everyone and that Duran did....but his list of champions that he beat, and Toney and Hopkins, and dominating middleweight, Super middle, then Light heavy, then winning the heavyweght title, and not losing until he was 34-36...Hmmmmm how can we rank duran above him. Duran dominated lightweight for long period, but so did Hopkins. We are not ranking hopkins up there, (Not saying Hopkins is a Duran, just drawing the analogy).

[LondonRingRules]

My challenge is that Duran nut huggers refuse to point out or skip over the fact that Those names mentioned are no better than who Mayweather faced .

** Ah, Mr. Pinky, I see some funlover found a Duran magic lamp to rub and you popped out again for the umpteenth time.

In an era of 4 major titles and being the HBO house fighter, it's alarming that Floydy ain't held anything but a WBC title. I don't count the brief IBF title he won over the disgraced Judah as he could have had Judah when Zabby called him out for a super fight after knocking out Spinks.

No, Floydy the WBC company man was promised the WBC jrwelt champ Gatti after setting the world on fire fighting two WBC eliminators against journeymen contenders.

When Duran moved up, he had no such choices, no network to run interference. He had to take on the welt contenders in order to force Leonard to face him. Leonard was ordered to face him after Benitez repeatedly ducked him at 140/147.

Fairplay, Floydy ain't met the best since moving from lightweight just like Duran didn't meet the McCallums, ect at 154-168, but Floydy only 39 bouts into his WBC protected career, half as many as Duran at the same age. Duran might be forced to take two title eliminators to face a Gatti, but nobody 'cept the sugared up fanboys would believe Duran would ever turn down a shot that paid muchos mas dinero at the unified welt champ.

Look, some of us think Leonard and Floydy overrated. Duran was 2nd ranked IBRO lightweight and 20th rated welt. Leonard got 2nd ranked welt rating, so only a first rate dolt would deny his rating, though I question how a guy with only 33 fights and a 6-1 title record in a split title era is ranked over the who's who he is ranked over. Leonard didn't get a middle ranking.

IBRO also did a p4p list, and Duran is 7th, Leonard tied for 12th with Ezzy Charles. Maybe you disagree with the rankings, plenty of bones to pick there, but there they are. Golly Cheez Whiz, maybe after all the old IBRO dinos pass on, the Kellerman fanboy club can rank Floydy ahead of everyone.

It won't matter than he's had to take short money in some of his biggest fights and has a history of turning down career purses. Forget that, his new name is Money and he operates in a Duran/Leonard free zone, thank goodness!

[wpink1]

London...let me help you bit Mate....The reason why Leonard is ranked so high roughly 40 victories, is because of the QUALITY of his resume. He beat 4 fighters who are generally ranked in the top 50 pound per pound of all time. Duran, Benitez, Hearns, Hagler. He won 5 titles in differnt divisions. He came back after a detached retina took away his best years, and after only 1 fight in 5 years he moved up and beat Hagler, who had beaten Duran and stopped hearns, who was undefeated in 10 years, and just came off his best 3 wins of his career Mugabi, Hamsho, Hearns.....Stopped every contender at middleweigt for hit belt, except for Duran...Was only 32. So much for the washed up theory.

Also, if you go back and look deep Ray won the gold medal and spent his early years as has Dlh, Whitacker, Jones, Mayweather many american fighters fightying as an amateur and thus he did not have to fight the 20-30 bums that Duran faced as a pro, he faced this level of fighter as an amateur. As a pro Leonard unlike Duran contuously fought better and better fighters each time he stepped inside the ring. You will not see a opponent with a losing record on Ray;s resume after his earlist fights, Duran did fight top fighters, but he also to pad his record, fought fighters he had no business fighting once he was a champion. Records like 10-11 or 0-3.

As for your false statment that Leoanrd was ordered to fight Duran. This is false. Leonard was going to fight Cuevas, then met behind the scenes with Duran's People and chose, was not ordered to fight Duran. Duran beat Palimino and this was the plan for a year, when Leonard beat Benitez in 79. Duran moved up for Leonard, not Benitez. So I suggest you study that part of the history. The plans was in the works once Leonard and Benitez signed. Duran had several options pryor, Palimon, Cuevas (whom he wanted), Leoanrd. Leonard offered the money, thus his plans where to have several fights and face Ray. Ray's plans where to face Cuevas and then the winner of the palimino, duran fight. Check the tape of the Benitez- Leonard fight., the informatkon is there.

I am no mayweather fan. I think he is overrated when he thinks he is in the same sentence as a leoanrd or Duran. But he IMO would easily beat Duran at Lightweight. His style is like Leonard's in New Orleans, only he has better defense. You think Duran was frusterated vs Ray, just think how frustereated Duran would be trying to hit Mayweather. Mayweather is a better counter puncher than Leoanrd was, and remember it was defense counter punching, and movememnt that frusterated duran, not the power combinations, and jab that Ray has over Mayweather. Also Mayweather has fought very good competion. Not what Duran has faced, but he has faced Correles, hernandez, Castillo, Judah, DLH. None of these are great names except for DLH who was past his peak, but keep in Mind duran beat only one of the greats....leonard and then he lost to him immediately after that, then got beaten every other time he tried to fight these great fighters that Mayweather does not have a comparable name on his resume. So Mayweather victories should compare to those of Durans, bucause Duran LOST most of his fights vs the best opposition he faced, and yes Mayweather, Robiinson, leonard, etc..all moved up too, so If we review them on their efforts north of their ntural weight, then the same goes for duran.

[LondonRingRules]

London...let me help you bit Mate....As for your false statment that Leoanrd was ordered to fight Duran. This is false. Leonard was going to fight Cuevas, then met behind the scenes with Duran's People and chose, was not ordered to fight Duran. Duran beat Palimino and this was the plan for a year, when Leonard beat Benitez in 79. Duran moved up for Leonard, not Benitez. So I suggest you study that part of the history. The plans was in the works once Leonard and Benitez signed. Duran had several options pryor, Palimon, Cuevas (whom he wanted), Leoanrd. Leonard offered the money, thus his plans where to have several fights and face Ray. Ray's plans where to face Cuevas and then the winner of the palimino, duran fight. Check the tape of the Benitez- Leonard fight., the informatkon is there.

** Mr. Pinky, I'm sure that you are a first rate fan, but alas, it appears that cheerleading suits you better than understanding how to follow the lineal passage of time in each man's career.

Duran abandoned his lightweight title after his last title fight in Jan78. He had repeatedly tried to get a title shot against Benitez at jrwelt to no avail. When Duran relinquished his title Palamino and Cuevas were the welt champs, not Leonard. Duran did not move up for his looks. He wanted a title shot at welt, having to skip the jrwelt division where Cervantes and a cast of Asians/Mambyheld the titles because he couldn't even make that limit anymore.

Palamino was an inactive WBC welt champ who lost to Benitez who was also inactive. Benitez was forced to fight Leonard or be stripped. Leonard was given the same option after his gimmee inaugural defense against Green, forced to face his mandatory Duran which Dundee did not want as he felt Duran was too experienced and dangerous. Dundee was no fool. Fairplay, Leonard had no experience of ducking Duran like Benitez did, but I got to tell you Mr. Pinky, Leonard's next fight after Duran relinquished his title was the great Rocky Ramon, so I doubt Duran knew Leonard from a fly in the dung heap when he moved up. His fight against Palamino seems to have been an informal WBC title eliminator. He can be found in interviews talking about fighting for the WBC title against Benitez which became Leonard.

The closed door session you gab about came about after Leonard was ordered to face Duran just like it happens all the time in boxing. Deal hammered out with promoter and fight made. Can't blame them for wanting title unification and an easier fight against Cuevas. You don't just abandon announced plans for unification to fight a guy who is probably going to take your title away from you.

I could go hunting around and find you the newsreleases to prove what I say, but it's a lost cause with you. Just like your claim Leonard never fought a guy with a losing record. Losing seems to have been branded on your backside at an impressionable age. Duran was not a pampered American amateur with a multi-million dollar pro debut contract. He was a scrawny kid much more poor and hardscrabble than Leonard could ever imagine and came up hard in one of the worlds great backwaters. So he fought some nontitle fights between very active lightweight title defenses, much more than Leonard had for his career? So what if 3 divisions above his natural weight after 75 fights he started to struggle against top class quality jr/mid/middles/supermids? Anyone with a brain were simply amazed to see him so active and come up with periodic brilliant performances and talk about his brilliant old days.

Forty fights for Leonard is one of the shorter careers, 33 actually as the rest just little encores Leonard like to have here and there that padded his bank account and ego. Already pointed out that Jim Jeffries packed more HOF fights in approx half as many fights as Leonard and was clearly the more formidable fighter in his day, but nobody bigging him up these days because of one single loss way beyond his best days and moderns always overrate their own eras.

I know Ray's record better than you it appears because I've actually spent some time breaking it down while you were hopping around with pompoms. You don't have to take my word for it. I gave you the IBRO rankins which show those who rank Duran over Leonard have some consensus rankings behind their preference. You can big up Leonard all you wish, but trying to drag Duran down with nonsense is sinking you faster than the setting sun's snuffed pink rays.

Cheers now, Mr. Pink. Beautiful time to be a boxing fan. You just take care you don't trip over Mr. Duran too much more before you get older as he's a mighty big load these days and you might hurt your hip!