Duran Leonard Hearns Hagler

[wpink1]

Wow i am dealing with some of the most ignorant and false information ever. That is what you get when your on this site, vs Cyberboxing.com with people who have opinions but knowledge also, and the level of debates surpasses the ****** as this is.

First off....When leonard and Hearns faced it was the policy for all championship rounds to go 15 rounds,so why even discuss te 12 rounds.etc. Also go back and do your research in the Hearns leonard first fight, it was LEONARD who won ALL of the Action ROUNDS in that fight. Common myth which is false is that Hearns was dominating leonard and that Leonard won nothing til he came back and stoppped him. Truth is round 6 and 7 where rounds in which the fight was almost stopped. Yet these rounds were not scored 2 point rounds. Then Round 13 the knockdown and total beating, and then the stoppage in round 14. If those two rounds along with the 8th round being a leonard round, where scored 10-8 as the Neveda state boxing commission indicated there would be an investigation (started by Dundee) after the fight as to why it wasnt (thus you hve the travesty in the 2nd Hearns leonard fight whih the 12 round was scored 10-8 when it should not have been, this gave leonard a draw which Tommy should have won)...Had these rounds been accuratly scored you have it even going into the 14 and 15t rounds...Check your facts

2ndly....Clown, because he was hitting Duran and duran cld not hit hime back. He made duran miss all night. When ever Duran bullrushed his way in and TRIED, to maul leonard this time, he was met with uppercuts and hooks, vs leonard using looping right hands (as he did in the first fight) which duran easily ducked underneath. No my friend what leonard did was frusterate Duran, and Duran chose to quit vs take his beating like a man.

Common myth about leonard stipulating rules. I will agree vs lalond he did. however vs Hagler...Who was it that was coming out of retirment with only 1 fight in 5 years and moving up to Middleweight. It seems that some are trying ot pull the Hilary clinton trick of getting the spotlight off the actualy issues and focus on and irrelevant Reverend. The issue is that when they came int the ring (Hagler leonard) they both knew all the rules, Rules that were the norm. 12 rounds was the norm at the time, just go back and look at Hagler most recent fights....Hmmmmmmm Thumbless gloves where becoming the norm. Ring size is always negotiated. Hagler weighed 159 1/2 for a fight that was held at the 160 pound limit. Hmmmm What else....What other advantages did loenard ever enjoy vs these greats...False Statments....

Finally funny. We hear on one hand Leonard was lucky it was 15 rounds because if it was 12 rounds....(Hearns fight number 1). Then on the other hand we hear leonard was lucky it was 12 rounds because if it was 15 rounds (leoanrd Hagler ).....Wow. Nothing but lame excuses.

Duran did not have an amateur career thus he did not have the wear an tear from the amateur days, which just ask Mark Breland, and others how this impacts you, some good some bad. Duran fought 70 plus fights at lightweigh, I challenge you all to go back and review at least 40 of these fights and you will see these fights were not professional level opposition. Leonard never would have fought a fighter with a record of 0-3 after he was a champion, or 10-11. Please these are facts, just look at Boxrec.com. If you factor that in, and also that Ray when he started was 130 pounds....as an amateur, generally not relevant in a professional discussion, but Duran actual amateur experience he realized while he was still growing as he started at 118....It is relevant because pre 18 these fighters were still growing boys...one had fights counted as an amateur, the other as a professional.....The point is at around age 32 Duran had already gotten his ass whipped by Leonard, Hagler, hearns benitez...By age 32 leonard had already beaten these 4 fighters, and had to in the middle of this take off 5 years....and came back and beat hagler who had beaten 2 of these other fighters....So yes duran started out very young with out a amateur career at 118 then moved up to win at 160....Leonard started out at 130, and won a title at 175....45 pounds for leoanrd, and 42 for duran....Hmmmmmmm Facts.

[SABBATH]

Do you really think it disgraced the sport? I very much doubt it. It most certainly disgraced Duran in every way as he basically went to **** after it. A fighter quitting in a fight doesn't disgrace the sport of boxing. It disgraces the fighter. The bureaucratic corruption and nonsense disgraces the sport of boxing, and the fixed fights or decisions and managers throwing fights for money and ruining their fighters careers disgraces the sport of boxing.

Mike Tyson disgraced the sport of boxing for raping his wife and for his complete insanity outside the ring. Did Chavez disgrace the sport of boxing when he quit? Did Liston disgrace the sport by quitting? Tszyu? All the other fighters?

Quitting doesn't disgrace the sport, only the fighter.

Benny, at the time it disgraced the sport because Duran was paid $8 and millions of fans worldwide had paid good money to see it on closed-circuit. Duran quitting under su****ious circumstances in mid fight for no apparent reason other than possibly frustration was a black eye to boxing. This was reflected by the media at the time.

Duran's performance like Liston disgrace the sport because their actions leave a su****ion of corruption and fixing of fights which is bad for the game. To this day there are many that believe both Ali-Liston fights as well as Leonard-Duran among others were fixes. If that's not damaging to the sport I don't know what is.

[good_looking01]

Marvin Hagler IMO.

He had a great chin, fantastic workrate, immense power and a amazing intensity.

His win over Minter made a good fighter look completely out of his depth. Shame about the disturbance afterwards though.

Hagler is without doubt one of the greatest MW's of all time and reigned in a time when the divison was red hot.

[BennyST]

Benny, at the time it disgraced the sport because Duran was paid $8 and millions of fans worldwide had paid good money to see it on closed-circuit. Duran quitting under su****ious circumstances in mid fight for no apparent reason other than possibly frustration was a black eye to boxing. This was reflected by the media at the time.

Duran's performance like Liston disgrace the sport because their actions leave a su****ion of corruption and fixing of fights which is bad for the game. To this day there are many that believe both Ali-Liston fights as well as Leonard-Duran among others were fixes. If that's not damaging to the sport I don't know what is.

I can see what you're getting at, but really, when it comes down to it that was one very small incident that is only remembered by fight fans. Those incidents don't dent the sport of boxing for the general public and it's approval of the sport. The decisions that happen every year when some unknown gets robbed puts a bigger black eye for the sport than any fighter quitting in the ring during a fight. You can see the outcome. One fighter quit and therefore the other fighter won. There are a myriad of possibilities that put boxing in the bad books of the public eye and really, the least of those is when a fighter quits with the slightest possibility that he may have thrown it for money.

Quitting throws a bad look for the boxing fraternity but in the general public's eye it probably makes more drama and therefore more money for the corrupt officials. Because, when it comes down to it, that is where the problem lies. Not in someone quitting because he is too fat, out of shape and frustrated, but, because somewhere, somehow, some promoter can make a lot of money by screwing over a fighter that doesn't mean much to the public or has been a favourite for many years and no one wants to see him lose.

The big fight that is always talked about, still, in Australia is the first Jeff Fenech vs Azumah Nelson fight. It's not talked about between just boxing fans though, it is still talked about by the general public because Fenech would have become the only undefeated fighter ever to win his fourth world title in four different weight classes and guess what happened? He was robbed blind! He won, on the majority of people's score cards, by around ten rounds to two! If Fenech had quit, no one in Australia would like him and that's about it, but, because of the complete absurdity of the ruling it put an entire nation against boxing and put the general public, who had suddenly become massively interested in boxing because of Fenech, in complete disdain of it. Boxing is now a struggling sport in Australia.

Compared to what goes on every year in boxing and how severe certain incidents are, Duran, Liston, or anyone quitting is a relatively small event and effects the boxing memory, not the general public and compared to the true corruption that goes on constantly between promoters, managers, bookies etc. it is a very small thing.

Boxing is looked upon as a dirty, backward, corrupt sport that is ruled by greed, viciousness, and backstabbing carpetbaggers willing to screw their own mother over for a buck. What happens during a fight is of little concern to most, apart from the avid fan, compared to what goes on outside of the ring and how it effects the fighters. That concerns not only fight fans but also non fight fans.

[LondonRingRules]

London you need to check your facts.

** We've already vetted your shorts Mr. Pinky, and you're several loads over the limit.

I wouldn't rely on some fluffy bio authorized by Duran to puff up his touchy-feeling image for new agers. I especially wouldn't trust much of anything Leonard or Dundee state about events. These guys would drunk up the spin docs running presidential election campaigns until they spun off their donor's dinner platters.

You pick and chose your reality Mr. Pinky like any common self respecting fanboy might. Duran was really a nasty piece of work back then, contemptuous of fighters and creating his own little ganglike entourage that ultimately proved to be much of his downfall. I don't care for Ray's actions, but he is very much more the gentleman and his talent and achievements are out there. I have much more in common with Ray and by all rights in a proper fanboy universe should back him to the hilt.

Not a member of your universe Mr. Pinky. Already shown you Ray indeed did fight a fighter with a losing record, not that it's important to me in evaluating him, but it shines the light on your fanboydom and fantastical claims. When Duran relinquishes his lightweight title, Leonard is 6-0 scheduled to fight Rocky Ramon, being promoted in local area 2nd tier venues against journeymen to build his record, two years away from his title challenge. Duran is being interviewed in major venues after his wins over fringe and legit welt contenders and clearly wants a welt title shot. Already gave you a time line of relevant champs which you gratuitously regurgitate while telling me to check my facts. Ripe comedy indeed.

No, the facts are largely wasted on you Mr. Pinky. Anyway, my work on this thread is done. It doesn't bother me in the least that you rate Leonard over Duran, but I've done my work in showing that Duran is indeed ranked over Leonard in p4p consensus rankings by a considerable margin. You just look ridiculous in promoting Leonard by disparaging Duran's career when he was clearly beyond his best. Be like me bigging up Macho Comacho over Leonard by dragging in Leonard's worst performances. These guys can all stand on their own merits and weaknesses without taking stuff out of context and making up nonsense like you do.

In Ray's whole career, the only time he ever "wanted" Duran was when he wanted him at specific dates for rematches when he knew Duran didn't have enough time to train and properly lose the 40-50lbs he put on or when he was so old as to no longer be a worry.

[wpink1]

London...first thing you should do it learn to read the entire part of what I said then answer. I never said Leonard did not fight a fighter wth a losing record, I said and here is the quote, "Leonard never would have fought a fighter with a record of 0-3 after he was a champion, or 10-11." That still remains true...and correct. Now show me the Rocky Ramon on leonard record after he was a champion or a fighter with a similar record?? Just to show you how ignorant you are of the facts......and to expose you of being a pretend scholar of the game...

In 1972 Duran bean Ken Buchanon for the lightweight title. In 1973 he fought Doc McClendon with a record of 10-12-2..Hmmmm Show me a fighter onLeonard, Mayweater, Jones, Whitackers, DLH record, AFTER they were champion with a record like that...Oh by the way..I can show you at least 20 more bums like that on Durans record (flash Gellegg 14-14, Juan Medina 1-1, Lupe Ramirez 6-10) and these are all AFTER he was champion. What a joke.

Now for your other false statment about Leonard never looking for Duran. Leonard had an oral agreement to fight Cuevas, then LEONARD backed out and WILLINGLY chose to fight Duran. It was leonard who was the name, who generated the $, and he had already expressed interest in Duran when he was a lightweight champion. He travled to see Duran fight with Jackie Gleason, and was told that Duran would murder him, to never fight him, and thus he immediately spoke with Durans camp after the fight about a possible fight down the road. Check your facts.

As for the losing weight 40 pounds...2 things. Duran was told 1 week after he beat Ray in Montreal that there was a rematch on Nov 25th. This was signed as soon as Leonard returned home from Hawaii and rethought everything, also Carlos Eleta purposly signed it so soon so that it would mnimize the partying that Duran always was known for after big fights...Now I ask you....If if Duran had always done this weight gain in between fights even at lightweight where he had to lose 12 additional pounds, and he knew by the first week of July of a fight on Nov 25th....Oh one final thing Durna was ringside at the Ali Holmes fight, and when Ali lost Duran jumped up and screamed now he was the greatest, took off hi shirt and was in shape already....He had to lose according to an interview that night, he only had to lose another 7 pounds....This was a month and 1/2 before the fight....My question is why is there this excuse when he loses the rematch...Hmmmm Duran is a professtional, he had 72 previous fights never the eating excuse made (and he was known for this) but when he loses you and others scramble to find a reason for his loss.

He simply was overrated!! Funny how I provide facts and you all provide opinions...which are great and we all have them. It is only my opiniion that I think Ray is better than him. However, the weak information that many including London Rules tries to offer,,,,I hope you all do your research for yourselvles....I have given you 3 references....Leonards and durans own biography and Box rec.....Also I guess London believe he himself if more credible than the fighters themselves.....hmmmmmm

I sugget London

[LondonRingRules]

In 1972 Duran bean Ken Buchanon for the lightweight title. In 1973 he fought Doc McClendon with a record of 10-12-2..Hmmmm Show me a fighter onLeonard, Mayweater, Jones, Whitackers, DLH record, AFTER they were champion with a record like that...Oh by the way..I can show you at least 20 more bums like that on Durans record (flash Gellegg 14-14, Juan Medina 1-1, Lupe Ramirez 6-10) and these are all AFTER he was champion. What a joke.

** Mr. Pinky, iff'in you was a coon hound, you'd be the king of the coons barking up the wrong tree.

I already addressed Duran's habit of staying busy between prodigious numbers of title fights. Nobody begrudges him doing that since he was making peanuts compared to Leonard's multimillions. Leonard could only hack 33 fights before retiring.

Like I stated Mr. Pinky, the essential points I already made. Ibro ranks Duran considerably higher than Leonard. To expand, Duran has triple the wins, KOs, and yes, losses. Leonard is just Duran light, but I figure you need to lose some weight, so good luck with the dieting.

[wpink1]

london either your retarted or just want to debate..in your own quote of my statement, my other statment I said..:"after they where champion"....That reinforces my statment...

You show you know nothing about boxing. As for my weight, I am in perfect shape probably much less body fat than you. Not sure why your trying to make this personal, could it be because I am exposing your ignorance of boxing...However, we can do what ever you want to do......

Yes Duran is ranked above leoanard on most polls. I simply disagree. I offer facts to back up my position, but it is still an opinion and i respect yours and other positions. However, I simply do not get why people rank some on one scale and others on a different scale.

Get it. I think duran is great, and all time great, but what about a man that won 5 titles, beat overalll better opposition, was undefeated til age 34, went up 40+ pounds from middleweight and beat a heavyweight. I understand how people can rank duran high. He was a beast, but there were others chavez who was very successful, hell salvador Sanchez was well on his way to whipping better fighters until he died. Leonard beat not buchanon, or marcel..or moore..he beat duran himself, Hearns, hagler, Benitez...Now tell me are we ranking duran on a different scale.....Especially when you see that Jones, Leonard etc..progressivly fought better and better fighters..Duran not so....

[Nostromo]

To wpink1 (aka "Pinky"): Since you seem to be a Roberto Duran "specialist," perhaps you can explain why he is so grossly overrated by the vast majority in the boxing "community." I await your reply with great anticipation...

[wpink1]

Many people like a fighter....and the rocky babloa style of fighter at that. Duran embodied the smarts, the courage (except for one night), the savagery, the success (4 titles, 100 wins,) and the wins vs Buchanon, Leonard were his biggest two. Barkly and Moore were ok but t hey were not the level of these two fighters.

Now that being said, I also believe that duran with out a doubt is one the best fighters ever. It is funny I have always said he is a great fighter, but I just dont think the media and more importantly older experts who historically favor the old time fighters, give modern fighters the credit they deserve.

Lets examine.

No doubt Durans 70 wins at lightweight is a great accomplishment. However, when you go back and look at the quality of hisl lightweight resume, some serious questions arise. What you have is a fighter that for over 70% of his fights were vs subpar fighters. This again is horrible. There is no way that Leonard could get off the hook for fighting a fighter with a 0-3 record (get this point london rules, you keep on forgetting this) after he became a champion. NO WAY.

I honestly think that at the time of Durans dominance at lightweight then he movedup and beat leonard, I think he did move up into the top 10-15. However we have had fighters since then that are better than he. However, older fans who either are latino fight fans, grew up on Duran leonard etc,,, or those like bert sugar who simply do not give any current fighters their just due.

Look at Roy Jones, or Mayweather. These two are not fan favorits, the did not fight everyone. However many duran fans forget he never faced Arguello, or Pryor. Durna dominated the lightweight division for a decade, hmmm so did Hopkins, and Roy beat him,rather easily at his prime, and he beat every top middlewieght while he was their in convincing manner. Unlike Duran Roy moved up and beat the champions, Duran moved up and got repeately ass whipings.

Hmmm the very weak arguement that Duran was not prime, simply holds no water. None, only if you want to give Duran a different criteria than others. Duran wa 29 when he faced leoanrd. lost many fights before age 33. Roy beat Toney and Hopkins by age 28, and by age 33 had never...I repeat NEVER been bested inside a ring. Duran effectivly had amateur fights as a professional, which if it is before he was a champion is okay, but people need to recognize that fact. Jones had a long a brilliant amateur career. The reason why I point this out, is roy had half as many professionals fights, but he kept on fighting progressivly better opponents. Duran had 100 professional fights but as pointed out earlier he had at least 40 fights that MODERN day fighters would get destroyed by the media for fighting. Could you imagine Roy facing a figter with a record of 10-11?

Those like panamiac refuse to acknowledge the accomplishments of other fighters, and rate duran on a different scale. What duran did, Mayweather has done, exept for his win vs leonard. Leonard himself only had 40 fights, but does duran have 4 victories better than leoanrds...Ray also fought progressivly better opponents and had 5 titles...Roy had 4-5 titles too.

Older fighter fans simply need to stop hating on what the younger fighters are doing. Give them credit.