Modern ATG's will never be accepted

[Hawkins]

Obviously he wasn't a bum, but he was far from 'great' and the competition he was being pitted against was absurd.

Wow, sounds like the same description that could be leveled against Tyson as well.

[HeartAttack]

A differing opinion doesn't necessarily make for biasness. I think biasness is nothing more than an unreasonably viewpoint to the level that you can't, or won't, see anything else. I think that is the case in this instance. I mean when some users bring Mike Tyson up in just about every thread, regardless of what the subject is, thats the way it looks.

I wasn't claiming all the previous opinions were bias, just the ease in which some posters shun their bias and thrust the term on other well-educated statemnets.

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

Wow, sounds like the same description that could be leveled against Tyson as well.

Yeah, sounds like it but it's entirely different.

[them_apples]

The thing that bothers me is how (let's forget about bias for now) older fighters are often picked over newer fighters simply because they were around back int he day.

In some of these match ups the older fighter has absolutely nothing going for him yet he is still picked as a better fighter.


for example (I'm not trying to stir up trouble, so please respond in a civilized manner) Roy Jones vs Archie Moore

now I'm using this for an example:

I've tried analyzing both fighters closely, it appears Jones is much faster, has a tight defense (as opposed to toughing it out and eating shots) and he seems to show great punching power for his size, judging by the way he knocks guys out with one punch. He does all this making it look easy

then we have Archie Moore. I try to appreciate his talent in the ring, but after watching a Jones fight he appears extremely slow, and seems to tire in the ring, but always manages to keep fighting often by both fighters holding on in later rounds.

I'm not going to use a specific fight, but thats my view of it. Now what would Archie Moore have over Jones?? Other than "meh he's an ATG, often considered the best by boxing historian's" blah blah blah..but why? What outstanding talent is he showing in the ring that is so incredible? You can't just use the excuse that "he fought tough competition" because that is mostly opinion based, you can't base a fighter on his record only because competition changes with time. Analyzing a fighter in the ring is a much better way of doing it. (example fighting style, speed, endurance, punching power and weight/size)

Another example is "Marciano could push Tyson back, Tyson
didn't fight well backing up" Let's be real, how can a 185 lb fighter, who is very very slow, push a hyper aggressive 220 lb fighter backwards? (do you know how hard that would be?)

all my opinion of course, but POV's expressed by some people seem so totally absurd. Before someone falsely quotes me, never did I once root for any fighter in this paragraph, nor was I biased.

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

Just give it 50 years, then Tyson and Jones will get their just dues. If we're all still around then, Hawkins will be arguing against some young punk here that Jones was P4P the greatest fighter that ever lived. I'm telling you, that day is coming. LOL

[wpink1]

I am really in shock.... Maybe there should be some standards of basic intelligence on here. Roy Jones beating Ali or even compared, not on a pound per pound level (which is crazy enough there), but at Heavyweight.

Now I happen to think Roy Jones is one of the most talented fighters to ever lift up a glove, EASILY!. However Roy was a middleweight who beat 2 great fighters in his entire career. Hopkins and Toney. Roy moved up and was very successful vs good fighters, none worth mentioning as they collectively showed how weak the era was for Light heavy's down to Super Middleweights. He then fought the worst heavy weight champion to ever fight. John Ruiz won by DQ's, technicalities, and fighting 40 yr old fighters..John Ruiz also is on record for one of, if not the quickest Heavyweight ko...19 seconds, vs Tua. Roy beat him.

To someone even utter the idea that roy can touch an Ali at Heavyweight, is a joke, and whomever thinks that, types that, truthfully lables themselves as one with out common boxing sense, to put it mildly.

Ali dominated 2 decades of proven great heavyweight champs and contenders. Ali was much bigger, super fast, had a legendary jaw, heart, could go to war and win..and Roy with all due respect was very scared of brutal exchanges at super middle,,,what do you think would have at Heavy.

As for oldies vs Newbies....I agree that many always put older fighters above new fighters. They throw such things out like 100 fights, and tougher day in day out fighters...etc. Some valid some not. However we will never know, But I think there are many fighters now days that have styles that would completely leave fighters of yesteryear helpless. May be not fan friendly, but a Roy Jones at Middleweight would be handful for any middleweight Ever. That is Middleweight, not heavyweight. A Floyd Mayweather would be a handlful for most lightweights ever, and keep htis in mind he at lightweight was a very aggressive and offensive fighter, who had great defensive skills, speed and power, much different version than what you see at the highter weights where he is fighting bigger men, very good bigger men, day in day out.

The fighters that fought in yesteryear where from all accounts and from what I see much tougher mentally and physically. The fight that we rant and rave about now with Mosley-Cotto, could not touch the Zale-graziano fight. Based on many things that have conditioned fighters to be softer, we do not generally have Zales, Lamatto'a etc. So if these fighters of today were to go to war,, or toe to toe I tend to favor the older fighters. If fighters utilize such things as Roy Jones does with speed etc..... boxing, movement etc..I think that we see in a boxing match these straight ahead fighters would become frusterated such as Liston and Duran did with facing Ali, or Leonard when they boxed. WHEN THEY BOXED,,,not went toe to toe.

It is all guess work, but if you sit back and look closley at the style of the fights, and look at fights when old school meets new school, you will see a trend. Toe to Toe...old school... Boxing match... new school type of fighters that utilize speed, boxign angle, go on to many times win boring, points decisions.

[LondonRingRules]

To someone even utter the idea that roy can touch an Ali at Heavyweight, is a joke, and whomever thinks that, types that, truthfully lables themselves as one with out common boxing sense, to put it mildly.

Ali dominated 2 decades of proven great heavyweight champs and contenders.

** OK, Mr. Pink has opened himself up to something other than SRLeonard, so I'm going to take him up on the challenge I offered up about other topics.

Moderns like Kellerman were putting forth that Roy could easily defeat Rocky, Louis, Dempsey, and even Ali. Of course this in Roy's heyday. I suspect that at least publically, Mr. Kellerman would be a bit more circumspect, though in private I'm sure he still exists in his previous form.

Ali absolutely did not dominate 2 decades of boxing. You have made a gross overstatement.

Ali did dominate his first title bouts before being stripped, but not in the dominating manner of Roy. That's 4 yrs of domination, including the two highly suspect Liston bouts. He was not a dominant fighter leading up to his initial title challenge either, winning controversial fights against Cooper and Doug Jones and just a prospect before that.

In his comeback, just going by championship victories you can technically claim domination, but anyone with an objective eye could see he lost at least the first 2 Norton fights in the ring, if not also the 3rd one. Then the matter of Jimmy Young who outclowned the clown and outboxed the master. Not to mention the many fights he looked bad in against Lyle, Wepner, Evangelista, Bonavena, Shavers.....

Not much separating him and Frazier other than one win on the cards. Foreman pretty much muscled and pounded him out until running out of steam, the victory Ali claims was his best, and I can admit one helluva a dramatic finish.

I personally agree though, any form of Jones would come up short against a prime Ali with his full speed, footwork, and reflexes, the first championship version. The 2nd version of Ali could be outslugged and outboxed by the right guy, and Jones as a LH late in his career until after Ruiz was that guy. Maybe Roy would lose on the cards as Ali never lost a controversial fight, but if Young and Norton could do it, Jones could do it easier, but only the comeback version of Ali.

I also think Jones could give prime Rocky and Joe one hell of a tussle. Remember, it's styles that make fights as much as the fight in the fighters. I just think eventually their attributes, ie power and relentlessness, would eventually catch up to Roy over time, esp in a 15 rder. Dempsey at his best whacks out Roy within 4 although Roy is fully capable of going into the Gibbons survival mode. The Tunney version Roy could beat.

Of course, the beatable versions of Roy of Tarver2/3 and Johnson could be beat by all 4 at their worst, save maybe the Spinks onward version of Ali who was one of the most beatable champs in history at that point.

So, Ali was incredibly "touchable" at various point of his career. I know the anti Kellerman sect of Ali fans maintain Ali to be invincible, but having watched him fight, I saw him as more magnetic personality, a Music Man as it were, than invincible fighter, though for a while in his prime, he was on a major tear.

[Jim Jeffries]

In some of these match ups the older fighter has absolutely nothing going for him yet he is still picked as a better fighter.

for example (I'm not trying to stir up trouble, so please respond in a civilized manner) Roy Jones vs Archie Moore

now I'm using this for an example:

I've tried analyzing both fighters closely, it appears Jones is much faster, has a tight defense (as opposed to toughing it out and eating shots) and he seems to show great punching power for his size, judging by the way he knocks guys out with one punch. He does all this making it look easy

then we have Archie Moore. I try to appreciate his talent in the ring, but after watching a Jones fight he appears extremely slow, and seems to tire in the ring, but always manages to keep fighting often by both fighters holding on in later rounds.

So, which Archie Moore fight did you watch? The 46 year old Moore that fought Ali? Yeah Archie didn't have any power, you know ONLY 131 KO's. Couldn't have POSSIBLY knocked out Roy Jones because of that IRON chin that Roy has.

[ROSS CALIFORNIA]

So, which Archie Moore fight did you watch? The 46 year old Moore that fought Ali? Yeah Archie didn't have any power, you know ONLY 131 KO's. Couldn't have POSSIBLY knocked out Roy Jones because of that IRON chin that Roy has.

That was a 35 year old Jones, moron. Don't worry, it's going to take a while but you'll get there. lol

you know ONLY 131 KO's

If that meant anything, he should have KO'd Marciano. Like I've been telling you all along, you read too much into the stats of boxing. It looks like it's going to be a long process in educating you, but I'm patient. LOL

[wpink1]

london Rules.... There is not much disagreement in what I said and what you have said other than two things.

In every fighters resume (mostly everyones) there are close fights that when went to the scorecard could have went to the other person. I agree Ali got some very controverisal decisions when he was a older fighter. However, make no mistake he dominated that era by Wins. He was the man in the 70's, by legacy and wins, and titles. He beat Frazier, Norton, Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Young,,and he rematched these fighters whether he beat them or lost the first time. You dig deep to try to discredit Ali, but instead of discrediting great fighters which many do, why not offer an example of someone that did Better? That is the challenge as anyone can sit home and throw darts, but how about show a heavyweight champion that dominated one era, retired and beat in his second term in his 30's the quality of fighters Ali beat, and all the while become and maintain his heavyweight chanmpionship. All after he lost his peak years due to a intentional lynching of him by the US government.

As for Roy Jones, Kellerman is flat out on Crack if he thinks Roy could beat a prime Joe Louis or Rocky Marciano. I personally think Roy was the greatest fighter in talent in the since Leonard, and possibly had greater talent than leoanrd. However the quality level of fighters that roy routinely jumped in the ring with was less than Ray, and when you fight against fighters that are a level less than you, it makes yoiur skills, speed, etc seem that much greater. Example Roy fights against a 40 yr old McCallum, or a completelly shot Virgil Hill (he had lost repeatedly before facing roy even to a light heavy weight and older shot version of Hearns) etc...these fighters should not force us to see what is inside of Roy. If roy is at 80% of himself he beats them. Ray jumps in with Durans, Hearns, Hagler, Benitez's..Roy did at Middleweight face good competition in Toney and Hopkins, etc...but to take this on up the ladder 30 (due to Louis not being that heavy of a heavyweight) n- 40 pounds and put him up there with Marciano Louis..etc...Wow.

I always think that Styles makes fights, and Roy has the perfect style to beat a middleweight version of these fighters, However at heavyweight, he would get slaughtered. His lone attempt at heavyweight was versus a fighter who throws very very very small amount of punches and does not pressure. Roy would not be able to keep a prime Louis or Marciano off of him. Taking punches from a heavyweight is where roy would come up short, dramatically. You think Ruiz rocked him in the first round, or Devalle hurt and dropped him, then Tarver and Johnson ko;d him...Wow What would a prime Louis do to him when he hit him, not if, as louis has fast hands too, not Roy Jones at middleweight fast, but as roy added weight he would slow down especially in a fighter where a great fighter such as Louis or Marciano would pressue him, wear him down, throw body punches all that movement and speed would slow down, and then somewhere round 2 ...joking probaly round 5 or so roy would realize this is not for him, or have to dig deep. HMmmmmmm Roy Jones dig deep, Are we Reaching.

No way No how,,not only in my mind but obviously in Roy's mind and his fathers as he called out Buster douglas and when Douglas answered his call, Roy backed away sighting his daddy thought he would not be able to beat Douglas. So Roy waited until the perfect opponent came, and Ruiz was that perfect opponent, Slow, no volume of punches, not pressure.