Top 10 Heavies from best to worst

[GJC]

Opinions will vary when it comes to all time great lists and the order they're in. While mine differs from yours a bit I still see yours as respectable. The only thing I take exception to is Jeffries at number 9. While a great fighter no doubt, I can't justify him being higher than Lidton, Tyson or Holyfield. With all due respect, Im curious why you rank him so high, my friend?

I always have problems placing Jeffries. Have to say he was dominant in his time. Could level the same criticism against him as Marciano that the big names on his record were past their best. I think the whupping off Jack Johnson diminishes his legacy in most peoples mind but that was 5 or 6 years after his retirement. Do think he would have been rated higher had he stayed retired.

[GJC]

I kind of use who beats who plus historical significance/context plus my bias at the time. I always have Ali 1st followed by Louis and then my feelings on the day to be honest. Jack Johnson and Dempsey will always rate higher on my lists than most I suppose.
I would not consider a fighter such as either Klitschko brother yet because their story has not yet been told if you know what I mean. I will say though (preparing myself for the inevitabal abuse) that their story is going to need quite an end!

[GJC]

Nice list Clegg and thanks for posting.

I think many lists vary so much purely because everyone uses different criteria when establishing a list.

I'm glad that you stated this is on a who would beat who basis.

It's incredibly difficult to imagine guys like Johnson, Jeffries and many fighters from a long time ago competing with many of the recent champions and this is because boxing has moved on so much.

I think what one needs to do is try and even things up a bit by imagining them as if they were around today or put Lewis, Ali etc back in the early 1900's and then see how you think they would match up.

Doing this then my list today would be like this:- (my top 4 would stay the same but the order changes from day to day)

1 L.Lewis
2 J.Louis
3 L.Holmes
4 M.Ali
5 J.Johnson
6 G.Tunney
7 H.Wills
8 S.Liston
9 G.Foreman
10 R.Marciano
11 S.McVey
12 M.Tyson
13 E.Holyfield
14 E.Charles
15 J.Frazier
16 J.J.Jeffries
17 S.Langford
18 J.Dempsey
19 J.Jeanette
20 R.Bowe


I also did a list on accomplishments and scored them in various different categories, this is what I came up with.

1>Total years reigned = 5 points for every year
2>Total number of defenses = 5 points for every defense
3>Times champion = 10 points for every time they became champion, +2 points for every year since they won their first title, until winning 2nd title. e.g George Foreman won the title twice giving him 20points, he won his 1st title in 1973 and his 2nd in 1994 a gap of 21 years giving him a further 42 points.
4>Quality of opposition = A=20 points, B=10 points and C=5 points (Of course this is subjective and my opinion)
5>Impact on the sport = A=20 points, B=10 points and C=5 points (Again this is subjective and my own opinion)

Here is how the fighters scored

1> Muhammed Ali,8 yrs,19 def,3 time champ,A QofOpp,A Impact = 233 points
2> Joe Louis,12 yrs,25 def,1 time champ,B,A = 225 points
3> Lennox Lewis,9 yrs,14 def,3 time champ,A,C = 168 points
4> Larry Holmes,7 yrs,20 def,1 time champ,A,C = 160 points
5> Evander Holyfield,7 yrs,7 def,4 time champ,A,C = 145 points
6> Mike Tyson,5 yrs,10 def,2 time champ,A,A = 145 points
7> George Foreman,2 yrs,3 def,2 time champ,A,A = 127 points
8> Joe Frazier,5 yrs,9 def,1 time champ,A,B = 110 points
9> Jack Johnson,7 yrs,6 def,1 time champ,B,A = 105 points
10>Rocky Marciano,4 yrs,6 def,1 time champ,A,A = 100 points
11>Jack Dempsey,7 yrs,5 def,1 time champ,B,A = 100 points
12>Floyd Patterson,6 yrs,6 def,2 time champ,C,C = 97 points
13>James J. Jeffries,5 yrs,6 def,1 time champ,A,B = 95 points
14>Tommy Burns,2 yrs,11 def,1 time champ,C,C = 85 points
15>Ezzard Charles,2 yrs,8 def,1 time champ,C,B = 75 points
16>Sonny Liston,2 yrs,2 def,1 time champ,B,B = 50 points

Interesting formula and made for a good list. Not too sure about times champion as it does slant towards a champion who couldn't hold onto the title? Consecutive years? Also maybe factor in opposition outside of being champion? Maybe head to heads too?
It is difficult you need to acknowledge Louis acheivment re defenses and also Ali regaining the title after so long.
Just trying to figure out a way where Liston ranks over Patterson which is certainly where i'd have him.
Good formula though and with a little tweaking you may finally be able to stop all these silly arguments. Yeah right

[JAB5239]

I always have problems placing Jeffries. Have to say he was dominant in his time. Could level the same criticism against him as Marciano that the big names on his record were past their best. I think the whupping off Jack Johnson diminishes his legacy in most peoples mind but that was 5 or 6 years after his retirement. Do think he would have been rated higher had he stayed retired.

With only 22 fights or so, he simply didn't have the same longevity as most other top 10 heavies. Marciano fought 49 times, and against pretty much the best fighters available while champion. In my train of thought the biggest question mark is, how would Jeffries had done if he had 20 or 30 more fights? I can't just put him over fighters who have answered that question and proven their longevity.

I have no doubt as to his talent or durability during the short span he did fight...but would that change against bigger and better comp the older he got?

Anyone who diminishes Jeffries legacy off the Johnson fight has issues. It would be like diminishing Ali's career for thr drubbing he took at the hands of Holmes.

Me personaly, I don't think he would rank any higher had he never come back. His career is just to short for me to think we have an accurate picture of him as a top ten all time heavy.

[The Iron Man]

Great post Jab, there is no doubt in my mind that Jeffries was a brilliant fighter and an awesome athlete. But the other heavies in my top 10 have achieved so much more.

[LondonRingRules]

Anyone who diminishes Jeffries legacy off the Johnson fight has issues. It would be like diminishing Ali's career for thr drubbing he took at the hands of Holmes.

Me personaly, I don't think he would rank any higher had he never come back. His career is just to short for me to think we have an accurate picture of him as a top ten all time heavy. [/COLOR][/FONT]

** The last couple of years of Jeff's career, there was movement rightly or wrongly in a segment of the media to have him fight Johnson, so it looks to me like it's a combination of not making that fight and his defeat that reduced his former #1 rank.

If longevity counted for anything, guys like Jeannette and Langford would be tip top of any list. Ibro ranks them in the middle of the 2nd ten, and Jeffries 7th. Most of the fighters ranked over Jeannette and Langford have a third to a fifth of their career fight totals.

Ranks are highly subjective, but at least Ibro is a consensus of 100+ members. BTW, YOU could join them by paying membership fees, or anyone apparently, even me..............and maybe I am.............incognito............

[alishuffle]

In a list of who beats who, my list would be as follows:

1. Muhammad Ali
2. George Foreman
3. Evander Holyfield
4. Sonny Listion
5. Joe Frazier/Mike Tyson
6. Larry Holmes
7. Lennox Lewis
8. Joe Louis
9. Jack Dempsey/Rocky Marciano
10. Floyd Patterson

[Obama]

My Top 20:

Joe Louis
Muhammad Ali
Jack Johnson
Harry Wills
Larry Holmes
George Foreman
Lennox Lewis
Mike Tyson
Evander Holyfield
Sam Langford
Jack Dempsey
Sonny Liston
Rocky Marciano
Joe Frazier
James J. Jeffries
Joe Jeannette
Jack Sharkey
Riddick Bowe
Sam McVea
Max Schmeling

[antk]

john ruiz for me is the worst-WORLD CHAMPION CLINCHER!

[glidesmack]

Some great lists here. People seem to know more about the great heavyweights than they do about other fighters.

My two cents - foreman's underrated, so's tyson.

other than that, it's extremely hard to compare the really old fighters, like jefferies, johnson, and dempsey. I think you could do it, especially by comparing videos right against each other.