Joe Louis, greatest heavyweight of all time?

[SquareCircle]

reminds me of what jesus chavez or ray mancini must feel when they look at a boxing match on tv. Everyone else looks at it like a sporting event, a boxing match, but what the average person doesn't see is the worst case scenario, which mancini and chavez both experienced first-hand.

it's the same way I felt when I looked at normal relationships after I
I had my heart broke. 'It appears to be something so normal, so everyday. Then you fall in love and get your heart broken, and realize that a normal relationship can so easily turn into a nightmarish ****storm that leaves you depressed for weeks.'

[Yogi]

Strangely and unfortunately, Louis promoter Mike Jacobs decided not make the fight as he deemed there was not sufficient interest in a Louis-Baer rematch.

Come August 1st of that year (or earlier...only going on the NY Times article on that date), Max Baer expressed a change of heart and was one of those who had no interest in being a part of or seeing another Louis/Baer bout...

"There was a feeling of relief in this corner when Uncle Mike Jacobs decided that nobody cared greatly for another Louis-Baer bout. The non-caring group included Max Addled-a-Bit Baer, who in this instance showed more than a glimmer of good common sense."

But I'm pretty sure you've already read that bit, though.

The August 7th, 1940 edition of the Washinhton Post also has a blirb that states "Max Baer gave up plans to meet the champion this fall".

[SABBATH]

Come August 1st of that year (or earlier...only going on the NY Times article on that date), Max Baer expressed a change of heart and was one of those who had no interest in being a part of or seeing another Louis/Baer bout...

"There was a feeling of relief in this corner when Uncle Mike Jacobs decided that nobody cared greatly for another Louis-Baer bout. The non-caring group included Max Addled-a-Bit Baer, who in this instance showed more than a glimmer of good common sense."

But I'm pretty sure you've already read that bit, though.

The August 7th, 1940 edition of the Washinhton Post also has a blirb that states "Max Baer gave up plans to meet the champion this fall".

Yeah, I traced the whole timeline and am at a loss why Baer would even be fighting if he didn't want the chance to fight for the championship after reaching #1 contender status. Alot of money to be made and surely a much more lucrative payday for Louis than anyone else since Conn hadn't really made his foray into the heavyweight ranks at the time. I would like a better explanation and more clarification. I can't understand why journeymen like Musto, McCoy and Dorazio were willing to fight Louis and Baer allegedly didn't want to. Strange since immediately after his Galento win in July Baer was calling out for a shot at Louis.

[hhascup]

I rate Ali and Louis #1 and #2. I go by all the facts. I watch films, look at the records, look at who they fought and beat.

I put this up on a couple of other sites, so forgive me if I repeat myself.

Ali fought the best, followed very closely by Louis.

Of Ali's 61 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 38 times (62.295%), winning 33 (54.098%) of them. He also fought a total of 49 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 61 bouts. That's a percentage of 80.3279%.

Of Louis's 72 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them 34 times (47.887%), winning 31 (43.056%) of them. He also fought a total of 54 boxers that were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 72 bouts. That's a percentage of 76.056%.

Of Rocky's 49 bouts, he fought boxers that were rated in the top 10 in the World when he fought them only 11 times (22.44898%), winning all 11 (22.44898%) of them. He also fought a total of 16 bouts that boxers were rated in the top 10 at one time or another in his 49 bouts. That's a percentage of only 32.653%.

Ali fought boxers with an average pro record of W-32.23 - L-5.25 - D-1.2, for an average winning percentage of 85.268595%

Louis fought boxers with an average pro record of W-38.1 - L-10.23 - D-2.6 for an average winning percentage of 77.349364%

Rocky fought boxers with an average pro record of W-29.7 - L-10.16 - D-1.77 for an average winning percentage of 73.48%

[Yogi]

Yeah, I traced the whole timeline and am at a loss why Baer would even be fighting if he didn't want the chance to fight for the championship after reaching #1 contender status. Alot of money to be made and surely a much more lucrative payday for Louis than anyone else since Conn hadn't really made his foray into the heavyweight ranks at the time. I would like a better explanation and more clarification. I can't understand why journeymen like Musto, McCoy and Dorazio were willing to fight Louis and Baer allegedly didn't want to. Strange since immediately after his Galento win in July Baer was calling out for a shot at Louis.

I think a lot of the answer lies in your "not sufficient interest" comment made earlier in the thread, as that seems to be the prevailing case in some of the things already posted, as well as some other articles I've found...

For example this article in the July 21st, 1940 edition of the Washington Post also illustrates the lack of "interest" in the proposed Louis/Baer rematch, or more accurately, makes fun of the whole idea of the fight;

"Stew-pend-us ideas are stirring around in the brains of Washington's fight-promoting team ... and the strange thing about the whole business is that said idea are to be considered with a large amount of seriousness. You want to know about the idea? Here 'tis -- Max Baer versus Heavyweight Champion Joe Louis in Griffith Stadium in September."

Because of some of the things being said at the time (more later), I'd have to think that the interest in the fight was very much lacking, and it wasn't nearly as big a money fight as it might appear to have been some 60+ years later (considering the name value of both).

The second thing that I think goes hand-in-hand with the general lack of interest in the bout, was Baer's asking price of a guaranteed $50,000 (that figure is very comparable to what Louis himself was making as the champion in other title defenses around that time), and it appears that Jacobs wasn't willing to guarantee Max that type of coin when talks about the fight had generated so little interest in the press...

"In case you give a hang, here is the basis of the argument between Max Baer and Mike Jacobs. Baer believes that he is the only drawing card left for Louis to fight. Believes, in fact, that he is such a drawing card that he should be given a $50,000 guarantee, just to appear. Mike argues, 'if he's such a whale of a drawing card he should take the percentage I'm offereing him. He'll make more money that way, if he can draw like he says he can." - (July 27th, 1940 edition of the Washington Post).

Note the "in case you give a hang" statement for more illustration on how the potential fight was percieved by the public/press during that time.

[SABBATH]

I think a lot of the answer lies in your "not sufficient interest" comment made earlier in the thread, as that seems to be the prevailing case in some of the things already posted, as well as some other articles I've found...

For example this article in the July 21st, 1940 edition of the Washington Post also illustrates the lack of "interest" in the proposed Louis/Baer rematch, or more accurately, makes fun of the whole idea of the fight;

"Stew-pend-us ideas are stirring around in the brains of Washington's fight-promoting team ... and the strange thing about the whole business is that said idea are to be considered with a large amount of seriousness. You want to know about the idea? Here 'tis -- Max Baer versus Heavyweight Champion Joe Louis in Griffith Stadium in September."

Because of some of the things being said at the time (more later), I'd have to think that the interest in the fight was very much lacking, and it wasn't nearly as big a money fight as it might appear to have been some 60+ years later (considering the name value of both).

The second thing that I think goes hand-in-hand with the general lack of interest in the bout, was Baer's asking price of a guaranteed $50,000 (that figure is very comparable to what Louis himself was making as the champion in other title defenses around that time), and it appears that Jacobs wasn't willing to guarantee Max that type of coin when talks about the fight had generated so little interest in the press...

"In case you give a hang, here is the basis of the argument between Max Baer and Mike Jacobs. Baer believes that he is the only drawing card left for Louis to fight. Believes, in fact, that he is such a drawing card that he should be given a $50,000 guarantee, just to appear. Mike argues, 'if he's such a whale of a drawing card he should take the percentage I'm offereing him. He'll make more money that way, if he can draw like he says he can." - (July 27th, 1940 edition of the Washington Post).

Note the "in case you give a hang" statement for more illustration on how the potential fight was percieved by the public/press during that time.

Good info regarding Baer's asking price. There may not have been a huge amount of interest in a Baer fight, nor could there have been much interest in Louis-Pastor III which might have been a reality had Pastor not been defeated by Conn. Ditto for Dorazio, McCoy, and Musto etc...Baer was the #1 contender and should have been most qualified for a shot whether or not there was great interest in the fight or not. I'm not sure if there was great interest in Louis versus anybody at that time since Conn hadn't established himself as a heavyweight threat at the time.

In any event if Baer priced himself out of the fight then it's his own fault.

[butterfly1964]

I just thought if Baer as washed up as he was was good enough to gain a number 1 ranking, then the division must have been in real bad shape. I could understand Baer having cold feet in the end, because of the beating he got the first time. If they did actually fight a second time, I think Louis could have taken him out in one round. Baer was completely shot, and Louis was a bigger, faster, and more refined fighter in '40 than in '35 and would have probably damaged Baer real bad.

[The Surgeon]

I've thought about it considerably, and I might have to place Louis as the best heavyweight ever. It's a hard decision, because boxing has changed so much since then and the way he went about the title was a little tricky. He had 25 defenses of his title, but the majority of them were Bum of the Month types. Johnny Paycheck, Buddy Baer and the rest of Joe Blow and the Nobody Crew. The best guys he beat as champion were Billy Conn and the rematch with Max Schmelling. Schmelling of course blew him out in 12 in their first fight.

What gives Louis considerable clout with the rankings I'd say is his punching power; him and Sonny Liston are my top picks with regards to having the hammer at heavyweight. The punches that Louis landed to knock out Jimmy Braddock and Max Schmeling were whoppers, right hands with everything turned on it and punched right through them.

What I also like about Louis is that he was smart as well as tough. Sure, he had to climb off the canvas almost as much as Floyd Patterson, but he did it and came back to win a lot. He had that perfect flaw that was an integral part of the Felix Trinidad appeal, he was human yet seemed to transcend that role as a man in the ring.

Of course, with the American public still reeling from the in-your-face bravado of Jack Johnson, Joe Louis' image had to be tailored to make him acceptable to the segregated times that he lived in. Listed among Louis' "bad habits" were an addiction to chicken and a voracious appetite for chewing bubble gum. Later it would turn out that he also was just as voracious with women and in later years would struggle with ******* and several other drugs.

During WWII, when I believe Franklin Roosevelt squeezed his muscle and said "We need more muscles like these for the effort", he became the first beloved black man in pop culture for embodying American values. As Jimmy Cannon stated, "Joe Louis is a credit to his race, the human race."

In the modern era of primadonna sports stars, Joe Louis can be appreciated for the talent and class that he intertwined simultaneously. One of the many black eyes that America carries is the way that the IRS harrassed Joe Louis later in his life, subjecting him to such farces as his ill-fated comeback against Rocky Marciano and his sojourn into the world of professional wrestling.

In the end, Louis was left in a somewhat less than majestic state, as a greeter for a Las Vegas casino. He also suffered from bouts of delusions as a result of his issues with drugs. He was given a hero's burial in Arlington National Cemetary when he died in 1981, an ending befitting the great character that he was. Athis funeral, Muhammad Ali whispered into Joe Louis Barrow Jr.'s ear "Your father truly was the greatest."

Depends on how u rate Greatness, I rate Joe Louis as number 1 in terms of accomplishments and longeveity and such but if u rate it by pictureing the top fighters going at it i think Tyson beats more than any1 and i rate him number1 in these surrcumstances

[brownpimp88]

Joe's win over primo carnera was big too. Either way i think foreman would beat all of them, however, he didn't accomplish the most if that's what this is about. My top 10 are:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Foreman
4. Holmes
5. Marciano
6. Frazier
7. Lewis
8. Holyfield
9. Liston
10. Tyson


Guys like dempsey, jack johnson, floy patterson and ken norton were good during thier era. However, if you do head to head fantasy fights, those are the best.

[SABBATH]

I just thought if Baer as washed up as he was was good enough to gain a number 1 ranking, then the division must have been in real bad shape.

Baer is a bit of an enigma to me. My rating of him as the 2nd best fighter Louis defeated has alot to do with the fact that he KO'd Schmeling, although Schmeling you could argue was the better fighter overall despite that loss.

After the Louis loss Baer rung up a substantial number of wins against mostly novice fighters, engaged in some 6 round fights and actually lost a 6 round decision to a guy making his pro debut. When he stepped up in class against Tommy Farr and Lou Nova he was defeated. After the Galento win suddenly Baer was ranked as the #1 contender. Not alot of public interest in Louis-Baer II, but remember there wasn't alot of interest in Louis-Walcott despite the 10-1 underdog Walcott also being the #1 contender. There was such a lack of interest in fact that it was going to be an exhibition.