When does a boxer become a journeyman??

It depends on their roll in the sport more so than their record. If they're the sort of fighter who will step in the ring on short notice, for any type of fight, I would consider them a journeyman.

ex; Joe Strong has the best explanation on this thread so far. Also his examples are pretty good too! I know something about this topics because as a very young trainer I got valuable corner time handling a matchmakers stable of journeymen fighters. The pro journeyman will give the opponent rounds and will show some style and form. They are most times successful amateurs who move from 170 to 210+ because the money is better in against prospects than being a local or regional talent. If your 6'2"+ you can make a decent buck but you must be aware who your in with and if they can punch or your going to get hurt. Years ago a tko stops you from earning for 30 to 60 days. A real KO can be as high as 90 days, you can't earn like that. Different names going to different states and knowing how to pass exams is as important as the ring! The best heavyweight journeymen are guys who appear to be fighting hard but have no power. I remember Mel Epps who fought locally from Philly to Maine and then went on to international bouts and faced Wlad and a few other contenders. The matchmaker has to bring the guy back home and add a few wins on his record so that up coming bouts don't show he's lost his last 15!!!! The old timers I handled taught me a lot about pace and clinching they knew 3 minutes to the second and most actually cared about the young men they were fighting as is they were their mentors. They actually were to be truthful a solid jouneymen could teach a young fighter more in 4 or 6 rounds than 6 months in the gym. Another good heavyweight was Whimpy Halstead, I had him in my gym in the early 80's as a lightheavy weight. Years later he shows up at over 220 fighting all the up and coming guys. I remember him spinning a young Duke Morrison around for a few rounds before "ducking out"! Whimpy was a character. It comes down to knowing how to lose without stinking out the house! If you can't master that you can fight for long as a true journeymen! Ray

after 1 loss according to 90% of the idiots that post here.

Usually when they fail the eye test.

A journeyman is a decent fighter that will never contend for a world title

To me, when the ship has sailed on you being "top tier", you're a journeyman. Gotta be a notch above a club fighter at least, but could range from a guy who just couldn't reach that next level, to a guy like RJJ who had it, but lost it and won't get it back. When you've written most of your journey in boxing, you're probably a journeyman. Sigh, Jones Jr makes me sad.

Lots of good posts made here. Fights on short notice anywhere & anytime, A guy who was matched hard early & never could get past the C level but could score an upset on any given night. He is brought in as an opponent who can give a prospect or rebuilding contender a good nights work. A guy who can go rounds but isn't a big threat (Fred Kassi or guys who use to be like Gavern or Firtha) to knock anyone out. Then there is the puncher journeyman who has some power but isn't the most skilled guy. He can score the odd upset because he has a puncher's chance. Travis Walker, Joey Abell, Raphael Butler or Alex Leapai are examples. Then there are the guys like Kevin Johnson who early on could not get any good fights because he was a big / long slick boxer who could take a punch & go rounds. He suffered Chris Byrd syndrome. Not many guys wanted to fight him because of his skillset & poor following. It was a big risk low reward fight. Outside the Klitschko fight he couldn't get any fights so he started fighting anyone anywhere. Started taking fights in foreign lands & on short notice. He would do just enough to lose so he could get another fight elsewhere. I remember box nation guys were baffled how he had such a good skillset but refused to use it. They thought he could beat Hammer & Charr but he just went thru the fight in sparring mode. He started travelling around fighting 3-4 times a year & making his 100000-150000 a year. He got to see some of the world while doing it. Edmonton journeyman boxer Ken Lakusta was a 2 time Canadian champion & he shared the ring with Frank Bruno, George Foreman, Tommy Morrison, David Tua, Frans Botha, Larry Holmes, Pierre Coetzer, Razor Ruddock, Michael Dokes, Willie De Witt, Trevor Berbick & Tom Glesby. He was a Jason Gavern type fighter who made a lot of noises & goofed around. He made a million in the sport & opened a good gym here in Edmonton & has been running it since. He was a great journeyman fighter...

The journeyman may not be able to beat you...but will still be crafty enough to stop you from winning

I think the journeyman is the guy with 6 draws on his record who is fighting the 10-0 prospect....they are the ones who supposedly keep fighters honest and help a promoter determine wether their guy is worth the investment.

I'm watching the gatti vs ward trilogy at the moment, and micky ward was considered a journeyman.... that's why I started this, Manny Pacquiao wouldn't be considered a journeyman but has lost 6 fights, but at the same time is amir Khan 2 losses off of entering "journeyman status" I think it's each to their own really....but when does a boxer hit the point where we all recognise him as a journeyman? Micky Ward was 37-11 heading into the Gatti fight (with enough close winds to look into, but also clear defeats against talents who showed talent); what would you consider Micky Ward if not a journeyman.

losses have nothing to do with it A fighter becomes a journeyman, imo, when it becomes absolutely clear that they, regardless of their number of fights, can no longer win fights against top level/contender quality opponents. Case in point, Bernard Hopkins; once he got beat twice by Chad Dawson, it was clear that Hopkins was heading to that journeyman stage. Careful matchmaking held it off for another two years, but the Kovalev performance made it absolutely clear that Hopkins is basically a journeyman now. If he'd chosen to continue fighting on (no idea why), it's clear to me that the young bulls (Beterbiev, Gvozdyk, Salamov) and a lot of the solid contenders (Barrera, Pascal, Fonfara, etc) all beat Hopkins clearly. Mind the matchmaking (Monaghan and Skoglund (doesn't look too good to me, so that would likely mean Hopkins having to travel) are both seemingly beatable) and Hopkins could milk a couple more paydays.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/active/11067736/Journeymen-the-boxers-who-choose-to-lose.html ^^^ read that.

A journeyman is a guy like Jason Gavern, a man who is lower than D-Class, Eric Molina can be considered to be a Journeyman

So when would you count a fighter going from club fight or contender to journeyman? club fighters are fighters who can't really get on network fights reliably, so they fight in places like clubs, small arenas, halls, etc hence the name "club fighter". These guys might land on a SOLO BOXEO or ESPN type fight now and then but the majority of their careers need to be seen live or as a recording to be seen. They serve as opponents for prospects, other club fighters, and journeymen rebuilding off a loss etc. if you are a prospect, you are considered a prospect until you reach contender status if you never lose or take a loss early and don't lose again. If you stutter early, you hang in club fighter territory, 12 wins 16 losses type guys. If you lose late, you fall into journeymen territory - 21 wins, 4-8-10 losses type fighter range. Club fighters are guys who couldn't break past that low level win range without accumulating many losses. Journeymen are guys who are almost contenders and might even overachieve and win a title and thus become true champions but can't reach top level without several setback losses, and if they never break through this point they serve as opponents for the top guys, as well as stay busy fights, and they compete with guys at their level to try and get a title shot. Everyone is a prospect until you are about 10 fights in or so and then you can fall into club fighter status and never make it out if you take hard losses you cannot recover from. If you succeed early and keep active and winning you can basically stretch from prospect to contender and might end up evening out at journeyman status like a Victor Ortiz type cat. And then there are obviously exceptions to the rule like Shiming, Rigo, Lomchenko, who are on fast track status.

So when would you count a fighter going from club fight or contender to journeyman?

How many losses would you count before you consider a boxer a journeyman? Theirs been some great fighters through the years who have been classed as "journeyman" Would you factor in the level of competition and how they lost the fight or what.... In other words, what's your definition of a journeyman? A journeyman is basically above a club fighter but below a contender. p4p king contender journeyman club fighter prospect within contender you can be the gatekeeper, a special label for the guy you beat to earn "the shot". "bums" are in the club fighter category, fringe journeyman.

I'm watching the gatti vs ward trilogy at the moment, and micky ward was considered a journeyman.... that's why I started this, Manny Pacquiao wouldn't be considered a journeyman but has lost 6 fights, but at the same time is amir Khan 2 losses off of entering "journeyman status" I think it's each to their own really....but when does a boxer hit the point where we all recognise him as a journeyman?

A journey man has nothing to do with losses, its basically a fighter who has no home and has to travel to land fights. Journey men usually get the short end of decisions think Glen Johnson thats the trouble with being a journey man boxer you usually get shafted fighting a hometown fighter, you are brought in as a top contender who they will fix with the judges to lose think Sven Ottke he beat a lot of Journey men by robbery and never fought out of Germany. Another stigma is that Journey men are paid to lose, many of them will travel and get paid to take a dive.

It's not exclusively based on losses imo. for example dave allen is already a journeyman after 12/13 fights and 2 losses... As soon as you take the im an opponent type mentality taking on fights at short notice = your a journeyman imo.