Where Did It All Go Wrong Between Ali and Frazier?

This Sports illustrated article by William Nack, "The Fight's Over, Joe" from 1996 does a good job of capturing the relationship the two men had. The story of Holmes and Foreman shielding Ali from a drunken bitter Frazier after the filming of Champions Forever sums it up for me. http://www.si.com/vault/1996/09/30/208924/muhammad-ali-joe-frazier-war-of-words It sounds nice and Marvis has a motive for claiming it but I don't believe Frazier ever truely forgave him. What Ali did can't be dismissed or washed away. He was venomous to some of his Black opponents like Terrell and Patterson. With Floyd I can understand. He was heavily involved in the struggle for Civil Rights as a staunch integrationist, the diametric opposite of the stance that the Nation of Islam had taken with their separtist views. In the struggle over Black representation Patterson was a legitmate target. But whilst Floyd wasn't forcefull he wasn't an inarticulate man and he had the weight of integrationists both Black and white behind him. He could debate on how civil rights gains would be best acheived, he felt sympathy for Ali's stance and that of tens of thousands of rightfully angry Black Americans, but he ultimately felt their position was misguided. Frazier wasn't embedded in that movement. He wasn't insulated from Ali's taunts and that's part of the reason that Ali choose him as a target to unload his separatist rhetoric on. Because he could barely answer back. In the struggle over Black representation Frazier wasn't a combatant, he was a victim. Ali later claimed he did it to sell tickets (he onced asked Chuck Wepner backstage of a talk show to call him a ****** when they went on air. He refused so Ali claimed he'd called it him anyway) as if belittling a proud Black man as part of a promotion was any better than belittling him because he genuinely was against what he felt he stood for. Frazier didn't stand for anything other than being a head down hard working decent blue collar African-American who provided for his family. That and being one of the best heavyweights to ever lace up a pair of gloves. Ali turned him into a pawn over what it meant to be a Black man socially and politically and he used that in turn to make money. I'm a massive fan of Muhammad Ali but to be so uncritically would make him next to worthless. I don't think what he did to Frazier was forgivable and that's part of the reason I don't believe Frazier ever really forgave him.

I'm tearing up. The Ali-Frazier rivalry played a huge role in my upbringing. My father used to show me fights on a regular basis. The trilogy with these two showed just how equal they were. In the last fight when Frazier was pulled out of the fight by his corner, Ali said, he wasn't too far from staying on the stool himself. The ones who know, know. I think most people accept that Joe would have won the final fight if he had been allowed to continue and just stood up. He had taken a beating the last couple of rounds, but Ali could barely stand. Two great fighters.

frazier used to have a reunion with ali whenever it made monetary sense. paid interviews, appearances, etc. from all accounts he was still very bitter toward ali until he died. i used to work for a radio show, and his publicist used to tell us that "joe is still bitter about some things," and i think that was the best way to describe it. one of the biggest insults to frazier was muhammad trying to take away his identity as a black man in america, calling him an uncle tom, etc. joe frazier was the son of a share cropper, and literally worked fields when he was young. his youth was anything but favored by white america, and his experience was just as "black" as ali's. ali painted him as a, dumb, subservient and complacent black man, and joe never forgave him for it. the two were also friends in the 60's, and joe, IIRC, was involved in getting ali a license to train and fight. all of a sudden joe sees this guy he helped out screaming in the media about how he's a gorilla :rofl:. i'd think the guy two faced, myself. Good post man, I feel the same. Ali did some b1tch moves... he wasn't the perfect person that some people claim.

Late in Joe's life. Most likely 2009/2010. It comes from Marvin Frazier, in the documentary "I am Ali". It was a touching moment in the film. They did. The only outcome of it all I didn't like is how Joe Frazier was not forgotten, but not treated as royalty the same way Ali was. It would have been nice for the world to remember them as what they were: equals. I'm tearing up. The Ali-Frazier rivalry played a huge role in my upbringing. My father used to show me fights on a regular basis. The trilogy with these two showed just how equal they were. In the last fight when Frazier was pulled out of the fight by his corner, Ali said, he wasn't too far from staying on the stool himself. The ones who know, know.

yeah, i mean i could see that happening and joe still being bitter :lol1:. and ali still regretting that joe knocked him down. i'm glad they cried it out. that's good to know. when did they get together for the reunion marvis frazier is referencing? Late in Joe's life. Most likely 2009/2010. It comes from Marvin Frazier, in the documentary "I am Ali". It was a touching moment in the film. Did not know that. I hope it's true. They gave the world some tremendous fights and left a bit of themselves in the ring all the time. They did. The only outcome of it all I didn't like is how Joe Frazier was not forgotten, but not treated as royalty the same way Ali was. It would have been nice for the world to remember them as what they were: equals.

Ali was an idiot. Frazier was just smart enough to see through his bullshit. Only sheeple believe that "the greatest" self-branding Ali was trying to peddle. Who was he? Or better yet who is he? He's dead and gone!! His body will be eaten by the maggots. and worms. He ain't no king!! Ali didn't feed me or clothe me or wipe my ass.

Would be great with some more actual references here, a lot of this sounds like speculation.

What does that have to do with anything it is easy to just dismiss that insult as Ali hyping/selling a fight but say Tyson Fury was facing Joshua and he called him a gorilla how well do you think that would be accepted? Calling Frazier, who by all accounts was a stand-up guy, a gorilla is pretty disgusting and foul.

Calling a black man a mummy, a rabbit, or a bear isnt the same as calling one a gorilla or monkey etc. I think you know this. Well gorilla rhymes with manila and thrilla

Here is the thing though, what if it had been Gerry Cooney who called Frazier a gorilla? How would that have played out?? What does that have to do with anything

Everyone knows Ali went way too far in his insulting of Frazier and Joe had every right to be bitter and hateful towards Ali. What Ali did wasnt just publicity it was unneccesarily cruel and hurtful and even he admitted years later that he went too far. To call an opponent names for fight-publicity is one thing, but to call a black man an Uncle Tom, a gorilla, "the other type negro" who works for the enemy, and other things was just out of line to say the least, especially after the way Joe had supported him during his ban and helped get his license back. And as someone else mentioned, his kids also suffered because of it too

Mehhh Ali called Liston an ugly bear, Foreman the mummy, and patterson the rabbit and even gave him carrots. You cant take what he does too seriously. Calling a black man a mummy, a rabbit, or a bear isnt the same as calling one a gorilla or monkey etc. I think you know this.

Ali said Joe was ugly and stole his lipstick and makeup

Mehhh Ali called Liston an ugly bear, Foreman the mummy, and patterson the rabbit and even gave him carrots. You cant take what he does too seriously. Here is the thing though, what if it had been Gerry Cooney who called Frazier a gorilla? How would that have played out??

I don't know where to find this (my best guess is youtube) but HBO ran a documentary on Fraiser and his side of the story before he died. He was really bitter towards Ali and I think any attempts at closure was too late for Joe. One of his quotes was when he was watching the Olympics with Ali lighting the fire and he said something along the lines of 'I wish someone would just push him in!' Also if you want to see an image of a haunted man, they showed Joe the Manila fight then cut to his face to see his reaction. When you saw his face you knew that this was a guy that replayed that fight in his head for years.

It's crazy how people who follow Boxing so much, don't understand PROMOTION. Ali was the best promoter in boxing history. If he came to that fight, humble and saying how he respects Joe, you think they would have made $5million EACH in 1971? That is CRAZY. 99% of fighters around now don't make even close to that in 2016! Ali himself admitted that he wanted his kids to play with Joe's and he didn't want anything bad to happen but Ali saw weakness when he taunted Joe and something he could play off. He knew it was TV GOLD. I don't think Ali was venemous in saying what he did, I think Joe was far more angry at Ali than Ali was at him. He rarely used to even call him Ali even in the 70s when Ali was seen in a good light. They got together at the end and said their piece, hugged, cried and went their own ways.

And Ali use too call Frazier a Gorilla. He even wrestled a stuffed one in the ring pretending it's Joe... That's Pretty bad Mehhh Ali called Liston an ugly bear, Foreman the mummy, and patterson the rabbit and even gave him carrots. You cant take what he does too seriously.

It's annoying as sh*t because Frazier was the one who was raised in extreme poverty with his parents as share croppers in Beaufort, SC. He moved to Philly I think when he was in his early teens by himself and made it in boxing from absolutely nothing. Interesting fact, he broke his left arm badly when he was a young kid. It never healed properly or straight. He developed early on his left hook when he lived in SC before he ever got serious in boxing

Did not know that. I hope it's true. They gave the world some tremendous fights and left a bit of themselves in the ring all the time. He said it on "I am Ali".

Ali talked crappy about a guy that had his back.