Peds increases stamina, so why dont we just allow it in boxing???

I work with guys on a daily basis who use a variety of setroids, steroids absolutely can make an athlete. Steroids in general use are fine, but they should never be allowed in sports. People need to realise, people who use AAS tend to play down their effectiveness for a reason. They make a massive difference, they just like to say otherwise as it makes what they accomplish seem more impressive. AAS won't make a plodder into a Mayweather, no. However, you imagine a good fighter adding hugely increased stamina, more power, more general strength, better punch resistance...that good fighter becomes a great fighter. That whole 'steroids don't make the athlete' is garbage, in many cases they quite clearly have. Alistair Overeem clearly bulked up on steroids to the point he looked like the Hulk, avoided drug testing for years and goes on a 12 fight undefeated streak in which he looked incredibly powerful and fit - he then fails a drug test, returns in clearly worse shape with far worse stamina and loses 3 of his next 4 fights...it wasn't coincidence. And yes, improving stamina and recovery is similar to letting guys with no power wear plaster gloves. It is cheating to improve a weak area, fact. They want better stamina? Work at it then, that is something every fighter can improve through old fashioned hard work. This post has good stuff. I didn't know the bit about Overeem. It's good you also mentioned that bit about the plodder turning into a Mayweather, but rather it'll still give the fighter an advantage. I just think a lot of people have this slightly distorted mentality of thinking that steroids means that the fighter, no matter HOW bad, can beat anyone at anytime as if it was a miracle drug. Yes, it DOES improve stamina and recovery and allow you to train stronger, but this is a debate could go on for days. I perhaps find myself often on the fence on the issue. Good stuff, mate.

^^^I commend you for your well thought out and compelling argument. This is a good thread. Ever since I saw that "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" documentary, I kinda' moved a little bit away from the whole conception that steroids are the ultimate evil. I think there is a natural tendency for people to label anything not entirely well-known as something corrupt. When steroids first came out in the public light, feds were cracking down on it as if it was cocaine, heroin, and other notorious damaging controlled substances. The fact of the matter is, steroids do NOT create the athlete. I think the best bit in that entire documentary is when a professional weightlifter is being interviewed and he says something like: "It's not that you can't be strong without steroids, you just can't be strong as possible without steroids. The steroids don't make the athlete. If I go out and put on Barry Bonds' uniform, does that mean I'm going to go out there and hit home runs?" Now, I get it. Weight-lifting and baseball aren't exactly like boxing. Boxing is entirely separate from these regular sports because, at its core, one of the means towards victory is to inflict injury on your opponent. Should "steroids" be part of it? I dunno. That's worthy of a long debate right there. I think you could make a fair argument for BOTH cases. Like here: And before anyone pulls out the old "well, let's just give them 6oz gloves and brass knuckles" sarcasm quip (apparently beaten to it), it's not the same. It's one thing to improve your stamina/recovery, it's another thing entirely to change the concept of the sport, and add a TANGIBLE element that could cause irreparable/readily noticeable damage to a fighter. I know I'm going to get mobbed for siding with the thread starter, but he's actually bringing a good debate to the table and something refreshing besides Mayweather/Pacquiao. I work with guys on a daily basis who use a variety of setroids, steroids absolutely can make an athlete. Steroids in general use are fine, but they should never be allowed in sports. People need to realise, people who use AAS tend to play down their effectiveness for a reason. They make a massive difference, they just like to say otherwise as it makes what they accomplish seem more impressive. AAS won't make a plodder into a Mayweather, no. However, you imagine a good fighter adding hugely increased stamina, more power, more general strength, better punch resistance...that good fighter becomes a great fighter. That whole 'steroids don't make the athlete' is garbage, in many cases they quite clearly have. Alistair Overeem clearly bulked up on steroids to the point he looked like the Hulk, avoided drug testing for years and goes on a 12 fight undefeated streak in which he looked incredibly powerful and fit - he then fails a drug test, returns in clearly worse shape with far worse stamina and loses 3 of his next 4 fights...it wasn't coincidence. And yes, improving stamina and recovery is similar to letting guys with no power wear plaster gloves. It is cheating to improve a weak area, fact. They want better stamina? Work at it then, that is something every fighter can improve through old fashioned hard work.

it has nothing to do with hardcore or trying to be badass. do you not understand that there is another perspective to see about this subject? im not trying to troll here. why is it ok for you or me to use medication made by the ingenuity of man to enhance our performance to make money to get something accomplished, to be a better person but somehow if an athlete takes it, its some abhorrent affront to life and justice? do you not understand that PEDS keep athletes safe, allow them to perform at a high sometimes artistic level for the masses to enjoy, allow them to make a great deal of money to provide a better life for their families? why is it so wrong for them to take something so they can achieve those things? THERE IS NO RISK TO YOU. THEY ARE THE ONE TAKING THE RISK. Do you not know that every governing body by every sport already allows athletes in their respective sports LEGALLY DEEMED OK PEDS? That they make those decisions almost arbitrarily without any real medical justification? Its 2015. Its time to move away from UTTERLY IDIOTIC SELF RIGHTEOUS IDEAS like JESUS AND ALLAH ARE real and that peds taken by athletes is somehow some evil deed and abomination to fair play. Its not. Its human evolution, progress and brilliance of mankind. What about their life outside of boxing? As a fan, it would be awesome to watch, but as a human being (I was a human before I was a fan), I don't want to see domestic violence going on. I don't think it's a coincidence that we see athletes in some domestic violence situations. I've mentioned before...Chris Benoit.

Lance Armstrong of all people cheated and lied. Barry Bonds, Mcguire, Sosa,...etc. Alex Rodriguez... Common trait...They all lied and denied steroid use. Remember this, a cheat will lie just to save his own @ss. and yes, JMM is on the Memo pellets.

If there's PED cheating in cycling and baseball...then we all know there's cheating going on in boxing. There's some shady characters involved in the sport. We all know this. When we are dealing with a combat sport, PED testing should be strict and the best possible testing should be used. Lives/health are at stake. We all know people can get hurt in the ring.

wouldn't it make fights more exciting? I don't really see the big fuss over this. Why can't we just allowed Performance Enhancing Drugs, I mean it doesn't increase power, only stamina so why not? steroids absolutely increase the overall output of power. they can probably make you punch harder in the proper context. ask marquez. i can't prove he was on PEDS, but the guy hooked up with memo heredia, a steroid guru, went through a second puberty. cmon, man. they do allow you to punch hard for longer, which translates to extra head trauma. they also let you sustain more head trauma. steroids / doping = more trauma.

say what you will about the testing, but also the ridiculing from the public, it keeps these guys in check right now majority of society has the right mentality towards steroid use which keeps alot of people honest and with some damn pride to not stoop to that sht take that away in a society that is completely fine with steroids, epo, hgh etc and actually asks you "hey, why aren't you doping?" and the system will go bonkers i wouldn't want to be an athlete in an era where you are expected to dope up, i wouldn't be a fan of taking injections every week, taking blood out and shooting it back in etc nor would i be willing to risk my health just to compete in a sport that is unsafe enough as it is, some guys wouldn't care, the risk would be well worth the short live they'd get and the bucks they'd make in the short term but i feel once roids become legal in a sport like boxing, that's when the game will die and dont compare bodybuilders with boxers, bodybuilders dont go about their training with explosive maneuvering, they dont jog 6 miles everyday, a boxer is at much higher risk of quickly tearing their body to shreds

Posting again for the guys that missed it Boxing Insider: Now if you***8217;re a fighter***8212;let***8217;s take this over to boxing for example***8212;in your medical opinion, what specifically is taking testosterone going to help you do in the sport of boxing? Dr. Ronald Kamm: It makes you stronger. You have faster recovery from injury. In a fight, if you were hit you might recover faster than if you weren***8217;t on steroids. I think Khan was surprised that Peterson had the recuperative powers he did in their first fight. It also raises the boxer***8217;s level of confidence, and his appetite for risk. That***8217;s where it***8217;s particularly scary, because it makes you more aggressive. Of course fighters are aggressive, but it***8217;s supposed to be controlled aggression, which the referee tries to oversee and encourage. Then there***8217;s aggressiveness to the point of going over the line. That is hitting the opponent low, or really continuing to hit an opponent when the ref***8217;s trying to stop it, or right off the break. Obviously the extreme would be Mike Tyson biting Holyfield***8217;s ear. I***8217;m not saying Tyson was using steroids, but his behavior that night would be compatible with ***8220;roid rage,***8221; that kind of overreaction. So, really, fighters are in danger. You are taking your life in your hands when you go into the ring, and you are more or less hoping***8212;or expecting***8212;that, yes, the other fighter wants to win***8230;but he***8217;s not out to destroy you or your career. It***8217;s like what***8217;s going on with the NFL today with head injuries. You understand there***8217;s a risk. You understand you***8217;ll be tackled, but you***8217;re hoping that the other guy doesn***8217;t want to end your career. But if you***8217;re in there with somebody who***8217;s hyped up on steroids, this guy won***8217;t necessarily care about your career or anything else. Interestingly, when I looked at Peterson***8217;s background, his father was in prison, the mother had personal issues***8212; and of course, a lot of fighters do come from troubled backgrounds. But having a family history of emotional problems or a family history of drug use does put an individual at more risk for steroid use and abuse. Boxing Insider: Is that due to the nature of survival? Like you***8217;ll do whatever you have to do to survive? Dr. Ronald Kamm: Well no, I just think it***8217;s a genetic thing. You***8217;re just predisposed. Boxing Insider: Something that you mentioned I found interesting was the factor of recovering faster in boxing. Of course if you get hit on the chin, you***8217;d need that immediate recovery. What is your opinion medically when it***8217;s said that somebody has a good chin in boxing? Do think that it***8217;s based on conditioning? Genetics? Certain places that you***8217;re more susceptible to being knocked out for instance***8212;on the chin, above the temple, the back of the head***8212;would a steroid necessarily help someone that gets hit flush on one of those spots? Would any kind of drug help that? Dr. Ronald Kamm: Yes it would. Because one of the places that steroids really are the neck muscles. If you strengthen your neck muscles, you***8217;re going to be able to absorb a hit to the chin better. The neck muscles really thicken in a steroid user. If you look at the neck of Barry Bonds when he first came up, and then, years later, when he was finally shamed out of the sport, it***8217;s amazing. Not just the forehead, and in the hat size getting bigger, but the neck. There are some actual mathematical equations that a colleague of mine at Harvard uses, looking at photos and using a caliper and being able to predict who***8217;s using and who***8217;s not. But there***8217;s also absolutely a genetic ability to absorbing a punch. Obviously the more you train, and the better shape you***8217;re in, you***8217;re going to absorb it better, too. But some guys just genetically can take it on the chin better, and other guys have a quote ***8220;weak chin.***8221; http://www.boxing insider.com/headlines/discussing-peds-in-boxing-with-dr-ronald-kamm-sports-psychiatrist/

it has nothing to do with hardcore or trying to be badass. do you not understand that there is another perspective to see about this subject? im not trying to troll here. why is it ok for you or me to use medication made by the ingenuity of man to enhance our performance to make money to get something accomplished, to be a better person but somehow if an athlete takes it, its some abhorrent affront to life and justice? do you not understand that PEDS keep athletes safe, allow them to perform at a high sometimes artistic level for the masses to enjoy, allow them to make a great deal of money to provide a better life for their families? why is it so wrong for them to take something so they can achieve those things? THERE IS NO RISK TO YOU. THEY ARE THE ONE TAKING THE RISK. Do you not know that every governing body by every sport already allows athletes in their respective sports LEGALLY DEEMED OK PEDS? That they make those decisions almost arbitrarily without any real medical justification? Its 2015. Its time to move away from UTTERLY IDIOTIC SELF RIGHTEOUS IDEAS like JESUS AND ALLAH ARE real and that peds taken by athletes is somehow some evil deed and abomination to fair play. Its not. Its human evolution, progress and brilliance of mankind. ^^^I commend you for your well thought out and compelling argument. This is a good thread. Ever since I saw that "Bigger, Stronger, Faster" documentary, I kinda' moved a little bit away from the whole conception that steroids are the ultimate evil. I think there is a natural tendency for people to label anything not entirely well-known as something corrupt. When steroids first came out in the public light, feds were cracking down on it as if it was cocaine, heroin, and other notorious damaging controlled substances. The fact of the matter is, steroids do NOT create the athlete. I think the best bit in that entire documentary is when a professional weightlifter is being interviewed and he says something like: "It's not that you can't be strong without steroids, you just can't be strong as possible without steroids. The steroids don't make the athlete. If I go out and put on Barry Bonds' uniform, does that mean I'm going to go out there and hit home runs?" Now, I get it. Weight-lifting and baseball aren't exactly like boxing. Boxing is entirely separate from these regular sports because, at its core, one of the means towards victory is to inflict injury on your opponent. Should "steroids" be part of it? I dunno. That's worthy of a long debate right there. I think you could make a fair argument for BOTH cases. Like here: I'm not even going to read the thread, just p!ss off. Why not allow fighters to cheat? Seems like a fairly straight forward answer. It then becomes a case of 'who is using the most substances?' and 'who is using the highest grade substances?' Not to mention guys would incorporate other enhancers for added power, strength, etc... Boxing is man against man to find out what's best, nobody wants to see it becomes chemical warfare. Stamina is a strength, some guys work harder than others on it. You can't just go removing advantages. What next, Malignaggi gets to wear plaster gloves to even up the punching power? And before anyone pulls out the old "well, let's just give them 6oz gloves and brass knuckles" sarcasm quip (apparently beaten to it), it's not the same. It's one thing to improve your stamina/recovery, it's another thing entirely to change the concept of the sport, and add a TANGIBLE element that could cause irreparable/readily noticeable damage to a fighter. I know I'm going to get mobbed for siding with the thread starter, but he's actually bringing a good debate to the table and something refreshing besides Mayweather/Pacquiao.

how does having more stamina make somebody more powerful? there are medications that specialize in stamina. what is producing the power? what is more natural? medication or weight lifting? isnt power a natural thing? isnt it you have to have thick legs and calves? if paulie malignaggi took something you think he would turn to GGG? you're fcking retarded demonizing something that hasnt killed anybody. you're so blinded and mind controlled like a damn zombie sheep demonizing something that has absolutely no effect to your life. carry on self righteous retards as these athletes takes peds already deemed legal by their governing bodies without any real medical justificiation. :lame: LOL Boxing is the most tiring sport, putting a crapload into punches is very taxing. As your stamina and energy levels decrease, your focus decreases, your ability to generate force decreases, and your ability to defend yourself decreases. :soapbox:

I'm not even going to read the thread, just p!ss off. Why not allow fighters to cheat? Seems like a fairly straight forward answer. It then becomes a case of 'who is using the most substances?' and 'who is using the highest grade substances?' Not to mention guys would incorporate other enhancers for added power, strength, etc... Boxing is man against man to find out what's best, nobody wants to see it becomes chemical warfare. Stamina is a strength, some guys work harder than others on it. You can't just go removing advantages. What next, Malignaggi gets to wear plaster gloves to even up the punching power?

only the stupiest individuals think it would be ok to allow ped's

it has nothing to do with hardcore or trying to be badass. do you not understand that there is another perspective to see about this subject? im not trying to troll here. why is it ok for you or me to use medication made by the ingenuity of man to enhance our performance to make money to get something accomplished, to be a better person but somehow if an athlete takes it, its some abhorrent affront to life and justice? do you not understand that PEDS keep athletes safe, allow them to perform at a high sometimes artistic level for the masses to enjoy, allow them to make a great deal of money to provide a better life for their families? why is it so wrong for them to take something so they can achieve those things? THERE IS NO RISK TO YOU. THEY ARE THE ONE TAKING THE RISK. Do you not know that every governing body by every sport already allows athletes in their respective sports LEGALLY DEEMED OK PEDS? That they make those decisions almost arbitrarily without any real medical justification? Its 2015. Its time to move away from UTTERLY IDIOTIC SELF RIGHTEOUS IDEAS like JESUS AND ALLAH ARE real and that peds taken by athletes is somehow some evil deed and abomination to fair play. Its not. Its human evolution, progress and brilliance of mankind. Boxing and other combat sports primary purpose is to inflict harm on the opponent, drugs to increase you're ability to make money enhance the individual and society.

wouldn't it make fights more exciting? I don't really see the big fuss over this. Why can't we just allowed Performance Enhancing Drugs, I mean it doesn't increase power, only stamina so why not? Because dummy, an added benefit of PEDs is a higher tolerance threshold, if you had two guys jacked on PEDs then they could conceivingly batter each other from pillar to post for 12 rounds, a clean knock out shutting of the lights does less harm to the brain than a constant and sustained barrage! So fighters would be at more risk!

how you figure that? you are only looking at it from one perspective. the fact that a fighter has more stamina means he could put himself in better position, better situation to DEFEND HIMSELF. Not only that, a boxer with more stamina could end the fight quicker. instead of two fighters running low and are just beating each other to death with no end in sight. who do you think is more at risk for brain damage or lmfffaaoo death? a boxer with full stamina bar or a boxer running low on stamina and open to risk of getting hit? that's an incredibly stupid reactionary post jas. im sorry to say that. certain peds should be made legal. it would actually benefit the boxers and prevent them from suffering catastrophic injury. people need to take a step back from the mob mentality of wanting to lynch and destory the reputation of any athlete that risk his life to take peds which are legal in other aspects of life but is shamelessly illegal for athletes. YOU OUGHT TO BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELF. Knuckle dusters could help fighters end the fight earlier, heck why don't we just allow them to come in with a baseball bat.

wouldn't it make fights more exciting? I don't really see the big fuss over this. Why can't we just allowed Performance Enhancing Drugs, I mean it doesn't increase power, only stamina so why not? What a terrible idea lmao

Look at yourself in the mirror You are basically saying you want more fighters to end up brain damaged or dead this exactly.:trink26::trink26::trink26:

Cuz then it'll be a war of PEDs and not a war of skills, the fighter that uses the better PEDs will have a significant advantage in the fight. Also PEDs do a lot of long term damage if used for a prolonged period of time cuz it changes the hormones. People go crazy cuz of it and it might make you take too much punishment without feeling it which will allow you to continue to fight without sensing that you're actually hurt and ur body should stop.

Boxing Insider: Now if you***8217;re a fighter***8212;let***8217;s take this over to boxing for example***8212;in your medical opinion, what specifically is taking testosterone going to help you do in the sport of boxing? Dr. Ronald Kamm: It makes you stronger. You have faster recovery from injury. In a fight, if you were hit you might recover faster than if you weren***8217;t on steroids. I think Khan was surprised that Peterson had the recuperative powers he did in their first fight. It also raises the boxer***8217;s level of confidence, and his appetite for risk. That***8217;s where it***8217;s particularly scary, because it makes you more aggressive. Of course fighters are aggressive, but it***8217;s supposed to be controlled aggression, which the referee tries to oversee and encourage. Then there***8217;s aggressiveness to the point of going over the line. That is hitting the opponent low, or really continuing to hit an opponent when the ref***8217;s trying to stop it, or right off the break. Obviously the extreme would be Mike Tyson biting Holyfield***8217;s ear. I***8217;m not saying Tyson was using steroids, but his behavior that night would be compatible with ***8220;roid rage,***8221; that kind of overreaction. So, really, fighters are in danger. You are taking your life in your hands when you go into the ring, and you are more or less hoping***8212;or expecting***8212;that, yes, the other fighter wants to win***8230;but he***8217;s not out to destroy you or your career. It***8217;s like what***8217;s going on with the NFL today with head injuries. You understand there***8217;s a risk. You understand you***8217;ll be tackled, but you***8217;re hoping that the other guy doesn***8217;t want to end your career. But if you***8217;re in there with somebody who***8217;s hyped up on steroids, this guy won***8217;t necessarily care about your career or anything else. Interestingly, when I looked at Peterson***8217;s background, his father was in prison, the mother had personal issues***8212; and of course, a lot of fighters do come from troubled backgrounds. But having a family history of emotional problems or a family history of drug use does put an individual at more risk for steroid use and abuse. Boxing Insider: Is that due to the nature of survival? Like you***8217;ll do whatever you have to do to survive? Dr. Ronald Kamm: Well no, I just think it***8217;s a genetic thing. You***8217;re just predisposed. Boxing Insider: Something that you mentioned I found interesting was the factor of recovering faster in boxing. Of course if you get hit on the chin, you***8217;d need that immediate recovery. What is your opinion medically when it***8217;s said that somebody has a good chin in boxing? Do think that it***8217;s based on conditioning? Genetics? Certain places that you***8217;re more susceptible to being knocked out for instance***8212;on the chin, above the temple, the back of the head***8212;would a steroid necessarily help someone that gets hit flush on one of those spots? Would any kind of drug help that? Dr. Ronald Kamm: Yes it would. Because one of the places that steroids really are the neck muscles. If you strengthen your neck muscles, you***8217;re going to be able to absorb a hit to the chin better. The neck muscles really thicken in a steroid user. If you look at the neck of Barry Bonds when he first came up, and then, years later, when he was finally shamed out of the sport, it***8217;s amazing. Not just the forehead, and in the hat size getting bigger, but the neck. There are some actual mathematical equations that a colleague of mine at Harvard uses, looking at photos and using a caliper and being able to predict who***8217;s using and who***8217;s not. But there***8217;s also absolutely a genetic ability to absorbing a punch. Obviously the more you train, and the better shape you***8217;re in, you***8217;re going to absorb it better, too. But some guys just genetically can take it on the chin better, and other guys have a quote ***8220;weak chin.***8221; http://www.boxing insider.com/headlines/discussing-peds-in-boxing-with-dr-ronald-kamm-sports-psychiatrist/

forget about the fact that he started knocking down pacquiao at his latest age at a higher weight when he never even came close to doing it in his prime. . .