Why Pacquiao Isn't That Great

What about some cliffs? Here you go http://www.boxingscene.com/forums/showthread.php?t=384942

Actually, I was a huge fan of Pacquiao like I mentioned and I still am a fan, what boxing fan isn’t a fan of Pacquiao? I still enjoy watching him fight. I just got way turned-off with all his and Roach’s BS excuses as to why they won’t take the tests and all the Pactards just keep making it harder and harder for people to really like him, and I just think he’s been matched perfectly and I don’t tend to overrate him as the majority of people do and I’m not obligated too. By Roach’s own submission, they didn’t take the Mosley fight because “he (Mosley) is too good.” What does that tell you about what they thought of the opponents he (Manny) did face? No threats. The only two fights they probably gambled with was the first Barrera fight and the second Marquez fight (and possibly the first one) thinking he was way past it for the second fight, and I have Manny going 1 and 2 in those 3 fights. i may be arguing semantics but to be a fan of someone isn't the first step to like him (in your case, to at least not hate his guts)? have you even read your own posts buddy? you find it real hard to give him credit on his wins, you can blame roach as much as you want on some recent fights because of the statements he made, but just looking at the entirety of your posts (particularly some of the highlighted parts), you are downplaying his wins (albeit maybe subconsciously) to the extent of even trying to telepathically read their minds like in the case of why they fought jmm again (team pac actually wanted a rematch right after the first fight but jmm's team declined). look, i'm not here to argue your points (coz honestly, posts like these have been beaten to death and just about anyone can pick apart any boxer's resume if they look real hard (and have enough hate?) to find flaws), i'm here to call you out on your inclusion of the word "fan" in your posts. no sir, you are not obligated to do sh1t like "overrating" anyone or anything. in fact some people here even share your mindset about pac, like that flexxx guy, but not alot go out of their way and go thru all the trouble and call themselves a fan of pac just to gain credibility. you are not a fan.

Dawg, look at yourself. You spent your lonely Thursday night in your mothers basement trying to convince boxing fans Pacquaio is not that great. We have Mayweather vs. Sugar Shane Mosley coming up, and you took the time to write this bullshyt essay? About who? Manny Pacquaio. Now go kill yourself. Nobody gives a shyt about what you think. Nothings worse than an Undercover Flomo. Lol, damn. Who moderates these posts? Anyhow, your post has more hate than mine, which is what I’m sure you’d label my initial post as. I don’t care. Ya, he's really not that great. Lol, maybe I should have titled my thread differently because basically all your doing is arguing that phrase, and not everything else I said regarding the fighters he’s fought being more names then actual threats when he fought them. Yeah ok, thanks for posting. Lol, sorry if I hurt your feelings on that thread you started. It was my intention. sorry, but i'm getting tired of all these "i'm a big fan of so and so, but guess what! imma just rip his entire resume apart, piss on his biggest wins, call him a roider coz some other fighter couldn't do what he did (which weren't supposed to be phenomenal anyway since his opponents were either old, weight drained, not at best weight!), and there's nothing you can do about it because i'm not biased! why? because i just said i was a fan of that guy!!!" grow some balls and man up bro. i mean come the fck on, if you don't really like a certain fighter, you don't have to kiss his feet or anything, but at least have some dignity and not act like some masquerading chick. it's normal to not like certain fighters for whatever reason but at least be vocal about how you really feel mang. this is what this forum is about and it's not like someone is gonna cut your balls off or kill your entire family just for talking sh1t about a certain fighter (actually, some would, but they can't). so yes, please, enough with all the "i'm a fan of" bullsh1t... it's getting really pathetic. Actually, I was a huge fan of Pacquiao like I mentioned and I still am a fan, what boxing fan isn’t a fan of Pacquiao? I still enjoy watching him fight. I just got way turned-off with all his and Roach’s BS excuses as to why they won’t take the tests and all the Pactards just keep making it harder and harder for people to really like him, and I just think he’s been matched perfectly and I don’t tend to overrate him as the majority of people do and I’m not obligated too. By Roach’s own submission, they didn’t take the Mosley fight because “he (Mosley) is too good.” What does that tell you about what they thought of the opponents he (Manny) did face? No threats. The only two fights they probably gambled with was the first Barrera fight and the second Marquez fight (and possibly the first one) thinking he was way past it for the second fight, and I have Manny going 1 and 2 in those 3 fights. you are way to critical. if u dont want to give Pac props, u are probably the only one. you cant discredit his every win, thats just wrong It’s not wrong.

GREAT POST! This is exactly why I'm not a fan of Manny. Claiming to have a great resume while beating past prime, shot, or weight drained opponents. All while probably being roided up. And that's why Floyd is greater right?

you are way to critical. if u dont want to give Pac props, u are probably the only one. you cant discredit his every win, thats just wrong

In what areas do you agree, in what areas don't you agree? I’ve been a fan of Pacquiao since 2001 disagree. sorry, but i'm getting tired of all these "i'm a big fan of so and so, but guess what! imma just rip his entire resume apart, piss on his biggest wins, call him a roider coz some other fighter couldn't do what he did (which weren't supposed to be phenomenal anyway since his opponents were either old, weight drained, not at best weight!), and there's nothing you can do about it because i'm not biased! why? because i just said i was a fan of that guy!!!" grow some balls and man up bro. i mean come the fck on, if you don't really like a certain fighter, you don't have to kiss his feet or anything, but at least have some dignity and not act like some masquerading chick. it's normal to not like certain fighters for whatever reason but at least be vocal about how you really feel mang. this is what this forum is about and it's not like someone is gonna cut your balls off or kill your entire family just for talking sh1t about a certain fighter (actually, some would, but they can't). so yes, please, enough with all the "i'm a fan of" bullsh1t... it's getting really pathetic.

Nice thread, care to expand on it a little? I think it's too brief....:D

what? I think there were many circumstances in Pacquiao's fights that played in his favor which I think should be taken into account when evaluating his place on all-time lists and assessing his legacy. Manny has beaten big names, he’s fought some great fighters, just that they weren’t great when he fought them; he’s beaten them when they were washed-up, past prime or drained. I’ve been a fan of Pacquiao since 2001, when he beat Lehlohonolo Ledwaba as a late substitute on HBO. The only fighter I can say Pacquiao beat that was prime or closest to prime was Marco Antonio Barrera in 2003. Yet, Barrera wasn’t fully prepared for this fight. I am sure you’re all aware of all the outside distractions he was going through before this fight, like his training was interrupted by the Big Bear fires, he had to find somewhere else to train, the revelation that he had undergone surgery to repair a cluster of malformed blood vessels in his head (metal plate in his head), and evaluations to determine if he was ok to continue fighting, etc. Now, none of this was Pacquiao’s fault. He did what he had to do and looked great doing it; this was Pacquiao's coming out party. I’m not a huge fan of Barrera, I did love his dismantling of the Prince though. On his next fight he drew with Juan Manuel Marquez. Yes, Pacquiao had an explosive first round, but I was more impressed with Marquez’s ability to get up from three knockdowns, survive the round and school Pacquiao for the majority of the following rounds. That performance was badass from Marquez. I thought Marquez won that fight. Afterwards, he was a 3 to 1 favorite to beat Morales on their first encounter. Morales had just lost to Barrera in their rubber match. Morales wasn’t shot at this point but he was past his prime, as even acknowledged by Roach when he said that Morales had nothing left and that Pacquiao would walk right through him, claiming Pacquiao was new and improved and had a new secret weapon called “Manilla Ice.” Pacquiao lost to Morales clearly. Tons of excuses then followed. For the rematch, Morales was coming down from 135 lbs where he had practically lost all 12 rounds against Raheem. Morales wanted to rematch Pacquiao at 132 lbs. because he could no longer make 130lbs healthily, but Pacquiao refused and made him drain down to 130 lbs. So in this case, Pacquiao beat a drained Morales who had previously lost all 12 rounds to Raheem. Not a real accomplishment in my opinion, but I could see how all the Pacquiao fan’s claim this fight, he did exact revenge on a man that beat him clearly. Then he went on to fight Oscar Larios. Oscar was fighting two weight classes above his best weight class, and he had previously been knocked out by Vasquez in 3 rounds 8 lbs south. And actually, Larios hurt Pacquiao, still this fight means nothing. The Morales rubber match wasn’t necessary at all. Means less than nothing. By this time, it was clear Morales was completely shot and looked like a complete cadaver at the weigh in. Then he rematched Marco Antonio Barrera 4 years after their first encounter. Barrera had just lost to Marquez the fight before, and even though Barrera was better trained this time around, he was way past his prime and Pacquiao was supposed to be better than he was 4 years prior. Yet, Pacquiao couldn’t put away an older slower fighter. Kind of gives credibility to the argument that for the first fight, Barrera was under-prepared. Not a very impressive win either, in my opinion, considering how the first fight went. Then came the Marquez rematch. Pacquiao was 4 years better and Marquez was 4 years older, yet, I think, as most respected “experts” think, Marquez won this fight. I had Marquez winning it by 1 point, 114-113, 7 rounds to 5, with Pacquiao getting an extra point for the knockdown. Good fight, close fight, but I had Marquez winning it. It’s a true shame that Roach and Pacquiao wouldn’t give him the rubber match, why didn’t they fight Marquez a 3rd time? Either way, I have Marquez winning more rounds against Pacquiao then Pacquiao against Marquez in the 24 rounds they’ve fought, even considering the knockdowns, Marquez still pulls ahead. Marquez and Pacquiao have fought pretty much in even terms at 126 and 130 lbs, yet, at 147 lbs, Marquez looked like crap and Pacquiao has looked phenomenal. Maybe Marquez needs to drink Pacquiao’s roided piss and not his own. So instead of giving Marquez a well deserved 3rd fight, they go up in weight and fight not-so-dangerous David Diaz. As you all should remember, Pacquiao demolished Morales in their 3rd fight, Morales after this fight goes up in weight again and fights David Diaz, knocks him down in the 1st round and most people believe he beat David Diaz but was robbed from a victory. So to put this fight into perspective, Pacquiao beat a fighter who just had, by the publics’ opinion lost to a fighter Pacquiao had just demolished. He beat a fighter who had been beaten by a fighter who had lost 4 of his last 5 fights, losing to 2 of those 4 by knockout. All-time greatness credentials right here man I tell you. Then comes the Oscar de la Hoya fight. Props to Pacquiao for getting this fight, but he shouldn’t get much props for beating Oscar. Don’t be fooled, even though they met at the welterweight limit of 147 lbs, this is still a catchweight. Pacquiao went up 12 lbs (actually only 7 lbs) and Oscar de la Hoya came down 7 lbs (actually 9 lbs). Oscar hadn’t weighed 145 lbs at a weigh-in in like 8 years, he only gained 2 lbs on fight night, and he hadn’t weighed that low on fight night in like 12 years. Oscar was a zombie. Good name for Pacquiao to have on his ledger, but legacy wise, again, this means nothing. Ricky “Hitman” Hatton is next, or most fitting, Ricky “arms down, chin up, hit me” Fatton. Hatton had looked like crap vs Lazcano right after Mayweather knocked him out and before Pacquiao. Hatton is no world beater and has tish for defense. Good win, not great. The stuff Pacquiao pulled against Cotto was BS, first making Cotto drain to 145 lbs with no title on the line because it wasn’t at the welterweight limit of 147 lbs. Then, after signing the contract, they came back with them wanting the title to be on the line. Cotto had no choice but to agree, Cotto was the champion, but Pacquiao was the money man, doesn’t change the fact that it was a BS move by Team Pacquiao. Still, this was not the same Cotto that beat Mosley, this was a Cotto that had been destroyed by Margarito, (doctored wraps or not, the point is, he was) and had just lost (unofficially) to Joshua Clottey (as Roach also believed). Good name for Pacquiao to have, not great by all-time great standards. Cotto had all odds against him. Bob Arum hates Mayweather, and I think he too played a part in the Pacquiao/Mayweather fight not happening. It seemed like they pretty much had an opponent for Pacquiao way before negotiations halted. So they chose Clottey after flirting with the idea of Pacquiao fighting Malignaggi, who by the way has been more open then the Mayweathers in regards to his accusations of Pacquiao juicing. Yet, Team Pacquiao chose to sue the Mayweather’s but were thinking of awarding Malignaggi with a Pacquiao fight? Does that make sense to you? I think Clottey is the strongest fighter Pacquiao has fought, but Clottey just doesn’t like to throw punches. Yet, I believe, as many believe, as Roach believes, Clottey beat Cotto. So that right there tells you were Cotto was in his career when he fought Pacquiao. In Clottey, Pacquiao was fighting a fighter whose first loss was against a fighter Mayweather beat, Carlos Baldomir. In Clottey, Pacqiuao was fighting a man who lost to a man Mayweather’s next opponent (Mosley) demolished, and that’s Antonio Margarito. Margarito is way slower than Pacquiao, yet he was still able to throw more punches against Clottey then Pacquiao did and landed almost 100 more punches than Pacquiao. This win doesn’t mean much either. I’m happy for Clottey getting this fight, but this was just a sparring session for Pacquiao. In what areas do you agree, in what areas don't you agree? Yeah ok, thanks for posting.

Too long bro. Sum it up a bit.

wow! that's long.

He is currently the WBO World Welterweight champion and The Ring World Junior Welterweight champion, and is rated by The Ring and BoxRec as the number 1 pound-for-pound boxer in the world. Pacquiao is also the former IBO World Junior Welterweight champion, WBC World Lightweight champion, WBC World Super Featherweight champion, IBF World Super Bantamweight champion, and WBC World Flyweight champion. Furthermore, he is the former The Ring World Featherweight and World Super Featherweight champion. Pacquiao is the first boxer in history to win seven world titles in seven different weight divisions. In addition, he is the only boxer to win the lineal championship in four different weight classes. For his achievements, Pacquiao was named the 2000-2009 "Fighter of the Decade" by the Boxing Writers Association of America. Ya, he's really not that great.

I stopped reading after the title.. LOL

I think there were many circumstances in Pacquiao's fights that played in his favor which I think should be taken into account when evaluating his place on all-time lists and assessing his legacy. Manny has beaten big names, he’s fought some great fighters, just that they weren’t great when he fought them; he’s beaten them when they were washed-up, past prime or drained. I’ve been a fan of Pacquiao since 2001, when he beat Lehlohonolo Ledwaba as a late substitute on HBO. The only fighter I can say Pacquiao beat that was prime or closest to prime was Marco Antonio Barrera in 2003. Yet, Barrera wasn’t fully prepared for this fight. I am sure you’re all aware of all the outside distractions he was going through before this fight, like his training was interrupted by the Big Bear fires, he had to find somewhere else to train, the revelation that he had undergone surgery to repair a cluster of malformed blood vessels in his head (metal plate in his head), and evaluations to determine if he was ok to continue fighting, etc. Now, none of this was Pacquiao’s fault. He did what he had to do and looked great doing it; this was Pacquiao's coming out party. I’m not a huge fan of Barrera, I did love his dismantling of the Prince though. On his next fight he drew with Juan Manuel Marquez. Yes, Pacquiao had an explosive first round, but I was more impressed with Marquez’s ability to get up from three knockdowns, survive the round and school Pacquiao for the majority of the following rounds. That performance was badass from Marquez. I thought Marquez won that fight. Afterwards, he was a 3 to 1 favorite to beat Morales on their first encounter. Morales had just lost to Barrera in their rubber match. Morales wasn’t shot at this point but he was past his prime, as even acknowledged by Roach when he said that Morales had nothing left and that Pacquiao would walk right through him, claiming Pacquiao was new and improved and had a new secret weapon called “Manilla Ice.” Pacquiao lost to Morales clearly. Tons of excuses then followed. For the rematch, Morales was coming down from 135 lbs where he had practically lost all 12 rounds against Raheem. Morales wanted to rematch Pacquiao at 132 lbs. because he could no longer make 130lbs healthily, but Pacquiao refused and made him drain down to 130 lbs. So in this case, Pacquiao beat a drained Morales who had previously lost all 12 rounds to Raheem. Not a real accomplishment in my opinion, but I could see how all the Pacquiao fan’s claim this fight, he did exact revenge on a man that beat him clearly. Then he went on to fight Oscar Larios. Oscar was fighting two weight classes above his best weight class, and he had previously been knocked out by Vasquez in 3 rounds 8 lbs south. And actually, Larios hurt Pacquiao, still this fight means nothing. The Morales rubber match wasn’t necessary at all. Means less than nothing. By this time, it was clear Morales was completely shot and looked like a complete cadaver at the weigh in. Then he rematched Marco Antonio Barrera 4 years after their first encounter. Barrera had just lost to Marquez the fight before, and even though Barrera was better trained this time around, he was way past his prime and Pacquiao was supposed to be better than he was 4 years prior. Yet, Pacquiao couldn’t put away an older slower fighter. Kind of gives credibility to the argument that for the first fight, Barrera was under-prepared. Not a very impressive win either, in my opinion, considering how the first fight went. Then came the Marquez rematch. Pacquiao was 4 years better and Marquez was 4 years older, yet, I think, as most respected “experts” think, Marquez won this fight. I had Marquez winning it by 1 point, 114-113, 7 rounds to 5, with Pacquiao getting an extra point for the knockdown. Good fight, close fight, but I had Marquez winning it. It’s a true shame that Roach and Pacquiao wouldn’t give him the rubber match, why didn’t they fight Marquez a 3rd time? Either way, I have Marquez winning more rounds against Pacquiao then Pacquiao against Marquez in the 24 rounds they’ve fought, even considering the knockdowns, Marquez still pulls ahead. Marquez and Pacquiao have fought pretty much in even terms at 126 and 130 lbs, yet, at 147 lbs, Marquez looked like crap and Pacquiao has looked phenomenal. Maybe Marquez needs to drink Pacquiao’s roided piss and not his own. So instead of giving Marquez a well deserved 3rd fight, they go up in weight and fight not-so-dangerous David Diaz. As you all should remember, Pacquiao demolished Morales in their 3rd fight, Morales after this fight goes up in weight again and fights David Diaz, knocks him down in the 1st round and most people believe he beat David Diaz but was robbed from a victory. So to put this fight into perspective, Pacquiao beat a fighter who just had, by the publics’ opinion lost to a fighter Pacquiao had just demolished. He beat a fighter who had been beaten by a fighter who had lost 4 of his last 5 fights, losing to 2 of those 4 by knockout. All-time greatness credentials right here man I tell you. Then comes the Oscar de la Hoya fight. Props to Pacquiao for getting this fight, but he shouldn’t get much props for beating Oscar. Don’t be fooled, even though they met at the welterweight limit of 147 lbs, this is still a catchweight. Pacquiao went up 12 lbs (actually only 7 lbs) and Oscar de la Hoya came down 7 lbs (actually 9 lbs). Oscar hadn’t weighed 145 lbs at a weigh-in in like 8 years, he only gained 2 lbs on fight night, and he hadn’t weighed that low on fight night in like 12 years. Oscar was a zombie. Good name for Pacquiao to have on his ledger, but legacy wise, again, this means nothing. Ricky “Hitman” Hatton is next, or most fitting, Ricky “arms down, chin up, hit me” Fatton. Hatton had looked like crap vs Lazcano right after Mayweather knocked him out and before Pacquiao. Hatton is no world beater and has tish for defense. Good win, not great. The stuff Pacquiao pulled against Cotto was BS, first making Cotto drain to 145 lbs with no title on the line because it wasn’t at the welterweight limit of 147 lbs. Then, after signing the contract, they came back with them wanting the title to be on the line. Cotto had no choice but to agree, Cotto was the champion, but Pacquiao was the money man, doesn’t change the fact that it was a BS move by Team Pacquiao. Still, this was not the same Cotto that beat Mosley, this was a Cotto that had been destroyed by Margarito, (doctored wraps or not, the point is, he was) and had just lost (unofficially) to Joshua Clottey (as Roach also believed). Good name for Pacquiao to have, not great by all-time great standards. Cotto had all odds against him. Bob Arum hates Mayweather, and I think he too played a part in the Pacquiao/Mayweather fight not happening. It seemed like they pretty much had an opponent for Pacquiao way before negotiations halted. So they chose Clottey after flirting with the idea of Pacquiao fighting Malignaggi, who by the way has been more open then the Mayweathers in regards to his accusations of Pacquiao juicing. Yet, Team Pacquiao chose to sue the Mayweather’s but were thinking of awarding Malignaggi with a Pacquiao fight? Does that make sense to you? I think Clottey is the strongest fighter Pacquiao has fought, but Clottey just doesn’t like to throw punches. Yet, I believe, as many believe, as Roach believes, Clottey beat Cotto. So that right there tells you were Cotto was in his career when he fought Pacquiao. In Clottey, Pacquiao was fighting a fighter whose first loss was against a fighter Mayweather beat, Carlos Baldomir. In Clottey, Pacqiuao was fighting a man who lost to a man Mayweather’s next opponent (Mosley) demolished, and that’s Antonio Margarito. Margarito is way slower than Pacquiao, yet he was still able to throw more punches against Clottey then Pacquiao did and landed almost 100 more punches than Pacquiao. This win doesn’t mean much either. I’m happy for Clottey getting this fight, but this was just a sparring session for Pacquiao. In what areas do you agree, in what areas don't you agree? I will make this article of yours shorter so that can be easily understood across the board. "All Floyd's fights are against prime fighters. So Floyd is greater than Pac. Ok we get it." Anyway, you just made the other flomos look like a saint. Bravo!

i agree, but Pac still did what he had to do to be great in all of those fights. i think he was always meant to be a junior welterweight and was just a machine in training. He looks much healthier at 140-147 than he did back at 132. no more shrunken cheeks. He's come along at the perfect time and is fortunate that the big money fights like DeLaHoya and Hatton were still around to make it happen. can you imagine if Bradley and Alexander were in the limelight during Pac's venture into the lightweights? Roach was clear about his concerns with Guzman and hardcore fans were foaming at the mouth before Oscar stepped in an made an offer. still, I give Pac all the credit, and would favor him against anyone below 147, but i would be lying if i said there aren't some really intriguing match ups out there. If a future Floyd fight fails (assuming Floyd beats Shane) i'd rather see Pac defend the the title @ 140 than to fight someone like Margarito. IMO, thats a bad move for Pac. adding another fighter who was previosly destroyed onto your roster is meaningless, even if he knocks Margarito out in the first. Getting in the ring with an undefeated and hungry fighter like Bradley would speak VOLUMES about Pac, and would be a truly great event.

I think there were many circumstances in Pacquiao's fights that played in his favor which I think should be taken into account when evaluating his place on all-time lists and assessing his legacy. Manny has beaten big names, he’s fought some great fighters, just that they weren’t great when he fought them; he’s beaten them when they were washed-up, past prime or drained. I’ve been a fan of Pacquiao since 2001, when he beat Lehlohonolo Ledwaba as a late substitute on HBO. The only fighter I can say Pacquiao beat that was prime or closest to prime was Marco Antonio Barrera in 2003. Yet, Barrera wasn’t fully prepared for this fight. I am sure you’re all aware of all the outside distractions he was going through before this fight, like his training was interrupted by the Big Bear fires, he had to find somewhere else to train, the revelation that he had undergone surgery to repair a cluster of malformed blood vessels in his head (metal plate in his head), and evaluations to determine if he was ok to continue fighting, etc. Now, none of this was Pacquiao’s fault. He did what he had to do and looked great doing it; this was Pacquiao's coming out party. I’m not a huge fan of Barrera, I did love his dismantling of the Prince though. On his next fight he drew with Juan Manuel Marquez. Yes, Pacquiao had an explosive first round, but I was more impressed with Marquez’s ability to get up from three knockdowns, survive the round and school Pacquiao for the majority of the following rounds. That performance was badass from Marquez. I thought Marquez won that fight. Afterwards, he was a 3 to 1 favorite to beat Morales on their first encounter. Morales had just lost to Barrera in their rubber match. Morales wasn’t shot at this point but he was past his prime, as even acknowledged by Roach when he said that Morales had nothing left and that Pacquiao would walk right through him, claiming Pacquiao was new and improved and had a new secret weapon called “Manilla Ice.” Pacquiao lost to Morales clearly. Tons of excuses then followed. For the rematch, Morales was coming down from 135 lbs where he had practically lost all 12 rounds against Raheem. Morales wanted to rematch Pacquiao at 132 lbs. because he could no longer make 130lbs healthily, but Pacquiao refused and made him drain down to 130 lbs. So in this case, Pacquiao beat a drained Morales who had previously lost all 12 rounds to Raheem. Not a real accomplishment in my opinion, but I could see how all the Pacquiao fan’s claim this fight, he did exact revenge on a man that beat him clearly. Then he went on to fight Oscar Larios. Oscar was fighting two weight classes above his best weight class, and he had previously been knocked out by Vasquez in 3 rounds 8 lbs south. And actually, Larios hurt Pacquiao, still this fight means nothing. The Morales rubber match wasn’t necessary at all. Means less than nothing. By this time, it was clear Morales was completely shot and looked like a complete cadaver at the weigh in. Then he rematched Marco Antonio Barrera 4 years after their first encounter. Barrera had just lost to Marquez the fight before, and even though Barrera was better trained this time around, he was way past his prime and Pacquiao was supposed to be better than he was 4 years prior. Yet, Pacquiao couldn’t put away an older slower fighter. Kind of gives credibility to the argument that for the first fight, Barrera was under-prepared. Not a very impressive win either, in my opinion, considering how the first fight went. Then came the Marquez rematch. Pacquiao was 4 years better and Marquez was 4 years older, yet, I think, as most respected “experts” think, Marquez won this fight. I had Marquez winning it by 1 point, 114-113, 7 rounds to 5, with Pacquiao getting an extra point for the knockdown. Good fight, close fight, but I had Marquez winning it. It’s a true shame that Roach and Pacquiao wouldn’t give him the rubber match, why didn’t they fight Marquez a 3rd time? Either way, I have Marquez winning more rounds against Pacquiao then Pacquiao against Marquez in the 24 rounds they’ve fought, even considering the knockdowns, Marquez still pulls ahead. Marquez and Pacquiao have fought pretty much in even terms at 126 and 130 lbs, yet, at 147 lbs, Marquez looked like crap and Pacquiao has looked phenomenal. Maybe Marquez needs to drink Pacquiao’s roided piss and not his own. So instead of giving Marquez a well deserved 3rd fight, they go up in weight and fight not-so-dangerous David Diaz. As you all should remember, Pacquiao demolished Morales in their 3rd fight, Morales after this fight goes up in weight again and fights David Diaz, knocks him down in the 1st round and most people believe he beat David Diaz but was robbed from a victory. So to put this fight into perspective, Pacquiao beat a fighter who just had, by the publics’ opinion lost to a fighter Pacquiao had just demolished. He beat a fighter who had been beaten by a fighter who had lost 4 of his last 5 fights, losing to 2 of those 4 by knockout. All-time greatness credentials right here man I tell you. Then comes the Oscar de la Hoya fight. Props to Pacquiao for getting this fight, but he shouldn’t get much props for beating Oscar. Don’t be fooled, even though they met at the welterweight limit of 147 lbs, this is still a catchweight. Pacquiao went up 12 lbs (actually only 7 lbs) and Oscar de la Hoya came down 7 lbs (actually 9 lbs). Oscar hadn’t weighed 145 lbs at a weigh-in in like 8 years, he only gained 2 lbs on fight night, and he hadn’t weighed that low on fight night in like 12 years. Oscar was a zombie. Good name for Pacquiao to have on his ledger, but legacy wise, again, this means nothing. Ricky “Hitman” Hatton is next, or most fitting, Ricky “arms down, chin up, hit me” Fatton. Hatton had looked like crap vs Lazcano right after Mayweather knocked him out and before Pacquiao. Hatton is no world beater and has tish for defense. Good win, not great. The stuff Pacquiao pulled against Cotto was BS, first making Cotto drain to 145 lbs with no title on the line because it wasn’t at the welterweight limit of 147 lbs. Then, after signing the contract, they came back with them wanting the title to be on the line. Cotto had no choice but to agree, Cotto was the champion, but Pacquiao was the money man, doesn’t change the fact that it was a BS move by Team Pacquiao. Still, this was not the same Cotto that beat Mosley, this was a Cotto that had been destroyed by Margarito, (doctored wraps or not, the point is, he was) and had just lost (unofficially) to Joshua Clottey (as Roach also believed). Good name for Pacquiao to have, not great by all-time great standards. Cotto had all odds against him. Bob Arum hates Mayweather, and I think he too played a part in the Pacquiao/Mayweather fight not happening. It seemed like they pretty much had an opponent for Pacquiao way before negotiations halted. So they chose Clottey after flirting with the idea of Pacquiao fighting Malignaggi, who by the way has been more open then the Mayweathers in regards to his accusations of Pacquiao juicing. Yet, Team Pacquiao chose to sue the Mayweather’s but were thinking of awarding Malignaggi with a Pacquiao fight? Does that make sense to you? I think Clottey is the strongest fighter Pacquiao has fought, but Clottey just doesn’t like to throw punches. Yet, I believe, as many believe, as Roach believes, Clottey beat Cotto. So that right there tells you were Cotto was in his career when he fought Pacquiao. In Clottey, Pacquiao was fighting a fighter whose first loss was against a fighter Mayweather beat, Carlos Baldomir. In Clottey, Pacqiuao was fighting a man who lost to a man Mayweather’s next opponent (Mosley) demolished, and that’s Antonio Margarito. Margarito is way slower than Pacquiao, yet he was still able to throw more punches against Clottey then Pacquiao did and landed almost 100 more punches than Pacquiao. This win doesn’t mean much either. I’m happy for Clottey getting this fight, but this was just a sparring session for Pacquiao. In what areas do you agree, in what areas don't you agree? Dawg, look at yourself. You spent your lonely Thursday night in your mothers basement trying to convince boxing fans Pacquaio is not that great. We have Mayweather vs. Sugar Shane Mosley coming up, and you took the time to write this bullshyt essay? About who? Manny Pacquaio. Now go kill yourself. Nobody gives a shyt about what you think. Nothings worse than an Undercover Flomo.

what's up with the discredit pac threads lately? its truly pathetic. and with an alt too. big fight this weekend. in case you forgot.

Hope TS has thick skin because you are going to get killed for this one!!!! Your post is well thought out and you obviously took a good amount of time to express your points. You did however, leave yourself wide open to be labeled a "flomo" when you said Marquez??? Should have drunk Manny's steroid filled piss or something to that effect. Triangle theories don't work on NSB so all the common opponents jargon will be tossed aside and discarded as utter trash by posters to this thread. You have been warned!!!!! I am tiring of all these anti Pac, anti Floyd threads. Floyd and Pac are the two best fighters in boxing in my opinion. I am more of a fan of Floyd's but I will readily admit Pacman's resume greatly exceeds that of Floyd's in terms of name value, quality opponents etc. whether they were prime, past prime or not and that is just a fact. Pacquiao may have the better resume but I still don't believe him to be the better fighter. Just as easily as you can poke holes in Pacquiao's resume it is perhaps even easier to do so in Floyd's. I will admit Roach has done a terrific job of matchmaking and attempting to give any advantage to Pacquiao that he can when securing these fights. I just want to see these two get it on so we can all see the answer for ourselves. Can't argue with that.

yeah right he's not great. He was only the first in history of boxing to become a champion in 7 weight division from flyweight up to welterweight, he was only the first in history of boxing to capture the 4 lineal belt and he was only the 2000 fighter of the decade. And another thing he was a 3 times fighter of the year this decade.

hey man you couldn't of said it best. That's something real boxing fans would know and not just people who watch it. I'm a fan of pacquiao too but facts are facts. But people are gonna say we're hating but again we're just stating facts. He's not the only one though, there's other fighters legacies that are overrated also like BERNARD HOPKINS. I'm just saying. Look into it. Thanks for being reader #1 of 50. Yes, I think many fighters legacies get overrated, one of them is Mayweather's. With time, I think both Mayweather and Pacquiao will get overrated and rated higher all-time then they should, Pacquiao because of the names he beat, not taking into consideration where they were in their perspective careers and other intangibles/tangibles, and Mayweather because of the fighters people think he could have beaten. With Mayweather, we have one of the better talents of he last 20-30 years yet, in my view, pretty much untested. Yes, he probably could have beaten everybody from 130 - 147 lbs, the thing is, he didn't fight them. The 'he coulda, woulda' arguments shouldn't have as much weight as I'm sure boxing historian's and "experts" will give them. Whatever.

I think there were many circumstances in Pacquiao's fights that played in his favor which I think should be taken into account when evaluating his place on all-time lists and assessing his legacy. Manny has beaten big names, he’s fought some great fighters, just that they weren’t great when he fought them; he’s beaten them when they were washed-up, past prime or drained. I’ve been a fan of Pacquiao since 2001, when he beat Lehlohonolo Ledwaba as a late substitute on HBO. The only fighter I can say Pacquiao beat that was prime or closest to prime was Marco Antonio Barrera in 2003. Yet, Barrera wasn’t fully prepared for this fight. I am sure you’re all aware of all the outside distractions he was going through before this fight, like his training was interrupted by the Big Bear fires, he had to find somewhere else to train, the revelation that he had undergone surgery to repair a cluster of malformed blood vessels in his head (metal plate in his head), and evaluations to determine if he was ok to continue fighting, etc. Now, none of this was Pacquiao’s fault. He did what he had to do and looked great doing it; this was Pacquiao's coming out party. I’m not a huge fan of Barrera, I did love his dismantling of the Prince though. On his next fight he drew with Juan Manuel Marquez. Yes, Pacquiao had an explosive first round, but I was more impressed with Marquez’s ability to get up from three knockdowns, survive the round and school Pacquiao for the majority of the following rounds. That performance was badass from Marquez. I thought Marquez won that fight. Afterwards, he was a 3 to 1 favorite to beat Morales on their first encounter. Morales had just lost to Barrera in their rubber match. Morales wasn’t shot at this point but he was past his prime, as even acknowledged by Roach when he said that Morales had nothing left and that Pacquiao would walk right through him, claiming Pacquiao was new and improved and had a new secret weapon called “Manilla Ice.” Pacquiao lost to Morales clearly. Tons of excuses then followed. For the rematch, Morales was coming down from 135 lbs where he had practically lost all 12 rounds against Raheem. Morales wanted to rematch Pacquiao at 132 lbs. because he could no longer make 130lbs healthily, but Pacquiao refused and made him drain down to 130 lbs. So in this case, Pacquiao beat a drained Morales who had previously lost all 12 rounds to Raheem. Not a real accomplishment in my opinion, but I could see how all the Pacquiao fan’s claim this fight, he did exact revenge on a man that beat him clearly. Then he went on to fight Oscar Larios. Oscar was fighting two weight classes above his best weight class, and he had previously been knocked out by Vasquez in 3 rounds 8 lbs south. And actually, Larios hurt Pacquiao, still this fight means nothing. The Morales rubber match wasn’t necessary at all. Means less than nothing. By this time, it was clear Morales was completely shot and looked like a complete cadaver at the weigh in. Then he rematched Marco Antonio Barrera 4 years after their first encounter. Barrera had just lost to Marquez the fight before, and even though Barrera was better trained this time around, he was way past his prime and Pacquiao was supposed to be better than he was 4 years prior. Yet, Pacquiao couldn’t put away an older slower fighter. Kind of gives credibility to the argument that for the first fight, Barrera was under-prepared. Not a very impressive win either, in my opinion, considering how the first fight went. Then came the Marquez rematch. Pacquiao was 4 years better and Marquez was 4 years older, yet, I think, as most respected “experts” think, Marquez won this fight. I had Marquez winning it by 1 point, 114-113, 7 rounds to 5, with Pacquiao getting an extra point for the knockdown. Good fight, close fight, but I had Marquez winning it. It’s a true shame that Roach and Pacquiao wouldn’t give him the rubber match, why didn’t they fight Marquez a 3rd time? Either way, I have Marquez winning more rounds against Pacquiao then Pacquiao against Marquez in the 24 rounds they’ve fought, even considering the knockdowns, Marquez still pulls ahead. Marquez and Pacquiao have fought pretty much in even terms at 126 and 130 lbs, yet, at 147 lbs, Marquez looked like crap and Pacquiao has looked phenomenal. Maybe Marquez needs to drink Pacquiao’s roided piss and not his own. So instead of giving Marquez a well deserved 3rd fight, they go up in weight and fight not-so-dangerous David Diaz. As you all should remember, Pacquiao demolished Morales in their 3rd fight, Morales after this fight goes up in weight again and fights David Diaz, knocks him down in the 1st round and most people believe he beat David Diaz but was robbed from a victory. So to put this fight into perspective, Pacquiao beat a fighter who just had, by the publics’ opinion lost to a fighter Pacquiao had just demolished. He beat a fighter who had been beaten by a fighter who had lost 4 of his last 5 fights, losing to 2 of those 4 by knockout. All-time greatness credentials right here man I tell you. Then comes the Oscar de la Hoya fight. Props to Pacquiao for getting this fight, but he shouldn’t get much props for beating Oscar. Don’t be fooled, even though they met at the welterweight limit of 147 lbs, this is still a catchweight. Pacquiao went up 12 lbs (actually only 7 lbs) and Oscar de la Hoya came down 7 lbs (actually 9 lbs). Oscar hadn’t weighed 145 lbs at a weigh-in in like 8 years, he only gained 2 lbs on fight night, and he hadn’t weighed that low on fight night in like 12 years. Oscar was a zombie. Good name for Pacquiao to have on his ledger, but legacy wise, again, this means nothing. Ricky “Hitman” Hatton is next, or most fitting, Ricky “arms down, chin up, hit me” Fatton. Hatton had looked like crap vs Lazcano right after Mayweather knocked him out and before Pacquiao. Hatton is no world beater and has tish for defense. Good win, not great. The stuff Pacquiao pulled against Cotto was BS, first making Cotto drain to 145 lbs with no title on the line because it wasn’t at the welterweight limit of 147 lbs. Then, after signing the contract, they came back with them wanting the title to be on the line. Cotto had no choice but to agree, Cotto was the champion, but Pacquiao was the money man, doesn’t change the fact that it was a BS move by Team Pacquiao. Still, this was not the same Cotto that beat Mosley, this was a Cotto that had been destroyed by Margarito, (doctored wraps or not, the point is, he was) and had just lost (unofficially) to Joshua Clottey (as Roach also believed). Good name for Pacquiao to have, not great by all-time great standards. Cotto had all odds against him. Bob Arum hates Mayweather, and I think he too played a part in the Pacquiao/Mayweather fight not happening. It seemed like they pretty much had an opponent for Pacquiao way before negotiations halted. So they chose Clottey after flirting with the idea of Pacquiao fighting Malignaggi, who by the way has been more open then the Mayweathers in regards to his accusations of Pacquiao juicing. Yet, Team Pacquiao chose to sue the Mayweather’s but were thinking of awarding Malignaggi with a Pacquiao fight? Does that make sense to you? I think Clottey is the strongest fighter Pacquiao has fought, but Clottey just doesn’t like to throw punches. Yet, I believe, as many believe, as Roach believes, Clottey beat Cotto. So that right there tells you were Cotto was in his career when he fought Pacquiao. In Clottey, Pacquiao was fighting a fighter whose first loss was against a fighter Mayweather beat, Carlos Baldomir. In Clottey, Pacqiuao was fighting a man who lost to a man Mayweather’s next opponent (Mosley) demolished, and that’s Antonio Margarito. Margarito is way slower than Pacquiao, yet he was still able to throw more punches against Clottey then Pacquiao did and landed almost 100 more punches than Pacquiao. This win doesn’t mean much either. I’m happy for Clottey getting this fight, but this was just a sparring session for Pacquiao. In what areas do you agree, in what areas don't you agree? Some good points there, but every fighter you face has problems. Pacquiao himself sue to work his ass off to drain to that low. Fact is, those fighters on his resume are still a tough line up. Not many can go from what he did from the lower weights up. Morales rematch was Morales choice because of the clause. JMM deserved a rematch perhaps yes. Cotto was 146 VS Clottey. Was he drained? I can't see many starting low go up that much to beat Cotto. Oscar chose to chase the fight and he chose to coem in that low. What do you want Pacquaio to do? Feed him some Pie and Orange juice? The way he beat them is what matters though. He destroyed them, weight drained, no chin or whatever as he should have. Barrera was about to retire and make a last stand but he chose to run. David had a clsoe fight with mOrales. That wasn't a good fight but a test at moving up in weight. Top rank job there I admit