Top 10 all-time heavyweights!

Can't understand the Tyson mania. I mean, guys like Ali & Frazier & Foreman and even Holyfield have a stack of victories against TOP fighters backing them up. Who did Tyson beat - prime, or very close to prime - that gets anywhere near being a top 10 HW? Who? Ratliffe? Ribalta? Biggs? Carl Williams? It's tomato can city. His first defeat was at the hands of the first bum who realised that once you saw through the Tyson hype machine there was a terrified young man with a lot of psychological issues looking back. Easy meat. Tyson fought two top heavies. He was beaten senseless twice and was disqualified in the other. He shouldn't be anywhere near top 30, let alone 10. 2nd that, post of the week!!!!

1. Larry Holmes 2. George Foreman 3. Muhammad Ali 4. George Foreman 5. Rocky Marciano 6. Joe Louis 7. Mike Tyson 8. Joe Frazier 9. Evander Holyfield 10. Lennox Lewis

Good post. Prime to Prime though I would have to put Holyfield higher than Lewis. Even though Holyfield lost to Lewis, he is boxing's true warrior and Lewis has been KO'd by single punches. Holy's inside and outside movement puts him ahead in my book. Everything else seems accurate except I would have to place Tyson (IN HIS SHORT PRIME) ahead of Tunney. Even though Lewis has proved himself in the eyes of many to be the generation's best HW, in my book Holyfield was the most complete fighter. Most fighters of the ATG lists lost a few fights in their carreer. If they come back, perhaps even stronger, and avenge the defeat, that earns respect. And the ATG list is a compilation of (SKILL + ACCOMPLISHMENT = ) Earned Respect. I will not file an ATG TOP10 list - I did not see enough of the older boxers to compare their skills. That said, I'd rank Ali, Louis, Lewis, Holyfield, Marciano, and Foreman very high. The Klitschkos are not in my Top10 ATG list for 2 reasons: - their carreers are not over yet - They might have the skills to be up there, but their accomplishments will lack in comparison. Ruling a mediocre division earns not that much respect as ruling a good or fair one.

QUOTE=Mugwump;6232971]Oh, I agree entirely. Technically, Tyson had everything. As is the case with almost all big hitters his power was generated from the heels up. He had the full array of shots - hooks, crosses, uppercuts - even a half-decent jab when he bothered to use it. He was fit and he was fast. Way too fast for almost everyone in the division. And he had superb head movement. It's something that we seem to be seeing less of lately. Can't understand why. And D'Amato couldn't have sold the package any better. But it only had a very limited lifespan. Living with Tyson and controlling the purse strings he could make sure he stuck to the gameplan. But it must have been increasingly difficult to keep the house of cards from collapsing as his profile and achievements grew. Even with Cus around - it was never going to end happily. Sooner or later he'd face someone who a) wasn't affected by Tyson's "baddest man on the planet" aura b) had some degree of ability and c) would not be bullied in the ring. That's why Tyson was continually learning and improving to be a boxer. It was noted by Rooney and many others that took part in Tyson's training camps (while with Rooney) that he was even better in the gym than in the actual fight. Rooney discusses this as well in an interview...on youtube. I guess, and this is only basing it on some things I've heard with other fighters having similar stories....Tyson never brought anything he used in the gym into a fight unless he was 100% certain that it was effective. Not until it was a natural instinct. What we did see was that he got better from 18 to 19, from 19 to 20, from 20 to 23. A big key that I liked in the progression of him as a fighter was learning to relax in a fight after he became Champion. He still had his frustration in fights but listened to instructions well from Rooney and did what was commanded of him. The object was also to keep it fun for him. At least I'm going to say that based on what Tyson said in an interview of what was different without Cus and Jimmy around. Have the video if you like which explains it better. With his mindset, and his popularity, the amount of pressure that was placed on him....he was doomed. In a way, I wonder if leaving Rooney and Cayton was a way to sabotage his career because he said he wanted to retire after Spinks...but that may be giving him too much credit even for a kid of his "street talents" And 'C' is the important condition. Because with Tyson everything revolved around bullying. Bullying his opponent. Bullying by Cus. Bullying women (sexually). Bullying by the kids he grew up with. He was terrified of being bullied. He still is. The psychological hang ups (which Cus and his team used cynically for their own ends) were immense. So much so that when I see him being pummelled by Holyfield (who NO ONE was going to bully) - standing there in the middle of the ring with an almost childish expression of dumb bewilderment across his face I genuinely feel sorry for the guy. Look what Tyson said in the documentary that was very important: He said Cus taught him how to box...and because of that, nobody was going to F*** with him anymore. Something on those lines. You see, with the knowledge of boxing, with the training, with the answers on how to box certain fighters and commands set by someone like Cus or Rooney...Tyson seemed OK. It was when he didn't have those people to lean on for the answers and had to rely on himself; he failed...and failed big. I would even say that he probably wouldn't have been Champion, like Atlas kind of said...if he hadn't ended up in Catskill. Maybe if he had a trainer like, Ray Arcel...yeah...or even George Benton...maybe...but you have to have those rare breed of trainers that could work with him. Tyson was no General...he was no Ali. He was a soldier. Could that soldier have gone rogue? Yeah...why not. One thing Rooney said was that he didn't feel Cus had enough time with Mike. Basically, he was an unfinished and rushed project. Cus's finished projects were Patterson and Torres. Forget how Cus put it so if you heard it and know it exact, let me know to rewrite it...here it is: I am not a success when I make a Champion...but when I make a Champion and he can become independent of me. One thing I've discussed before with someone else is how Tyson declined: With each fight away from Rooney, old habits continued to rise up. He started to hold more and wasn't as active in fights. After prison, we saw him foul more, hold more...get frustrated a lot more...and to cap it off, it was noted in the McBride fight that Tyson was biting his gloves...something he hadn't done since his amateur days. That is something I never knew and found that incredible. To go back to the "Tyson is the Greatest" bit that too many people like to use.....I agree that it is borderline ignorant to say. If we are talking about legacy, here are the facts: Tyson rose to the HW Title and unified it by 22. He looked great beating the competition he fought...especially for a now "small" HW in his era and of course how young he was...and maybe we can throw in the pressure that he was dealing with. However, Tyson would make one bad choice that would lead to another and another and so on...to the point where he got rid of what/who helped get him there: His original Team, led by Rooney and managed by Cayton...which coincides with a specific training regimen set up for Tyson's success. Tyson threw away his career and potential. And because of that, by the time he met Douglas, he got busted up and never fully recovered. Instead of getting back up after a loss and going back to what made him great...he didn't. He did get some of it back and it showed against Ruddock, however; it wasn't the same old Tyson. Then, Tyson went to jail, came out, and was finished because he couldn't find away to get his mental and physical self back on line. Like Tyson said himself: My career was over in 1990. The Tyson that many like to talk about, the Tyson from Berbick to Spinks, who many want to compare against the rest and call "The Greatest of All Time"...never made it to the 90's where he could have been fully tested against high quality opposition. And because of that, we just don't know how "great" he actually was or could have been. But what we do know is....what we saw was Mike Tyson. That is Mike Tyson making his own choices and/or being manipulated which caused him to fall. Now would he have been better off with Cus and Jacobs still alive? Maybe...probably...better off than leaving him alone. However, he still had Rooney to train him and Cayton to manage him and keep him active...and he blew that.

Oh, I agree entirely. Technically, Tyson had everything. As is the case with almost all big hitters his power was generated from the heels up. He had the full array of shots - hooks, crosses, uppercuts - even a half-decent jab when he bothered to use it. He was fit and he was fast. Way too fast for almost everyone in the division. And he had superb head movement. It's something that we seem to be seeing less of lately. Can't understand why. And D'Amato couldn't have sold the package any better. But it only had a very limited lifespan. Living with Tyson and controlling the purse strings he could make sure he stuck to the gameplan. But it must have been increasingly difficult to keep the house of cards from collapsing as his profile and achievements grew. Even with Cus around - it was never going to end happily. Sooner or later he'd face someone who a) wasn't affected by Tyson's "baddest man on the planet" aura b) had some degree of ability and c) would not be bullied in the ring. And 'C' is the important condition. Because with Tyson everything revolved around bullying. Bullying his opponent. Bullying by Cus. Bullying women (sexually). Bullying by the kids he grew up with. He was terrified of being bullied. He still is. The psychological hang ups (which Cus and his team used cynically for their own ends) were immense. So much so that when I see him being pummelled by Holyfield (who NO ONE was going to bully) - standing there in the middle of the ring with an almost childish expression of dumb bewilderment across his face I genuinely feel sorry for the guy. That's why Tyson was continually learning and improving to be a boxer. It was noted by Rooney and many others that took part in Tyson's training camps (while with Rooney) that he was even better in the gym than in the actual fight. Rooney discusses this as well in an interview...on youtube. I guess, and this is only basing it on some things I've heard with other fighters having similar stories....Tyson never brought anything he used in the gym into a fight unless he was 100% certain that it was effective. Not until it was a natural instinct. What we did see was that he got better from 18 to 19, from 19 to 20, from 20 to 23. A big key that I liked in the progression of him as a fighter was learning to relax in a fight after he became Champion. He still had his frustration in fights but listened to instructions well from Rooney and did what was commanded of him. The object was also to keep it fun for him. At least I'm going to say that based on what Tyson said in an interview of what was different without Cus and Jimmy around. Have the video if you like which explains it better. With his mindset, and his popularity, the amount of pressure that was placed on him....he was doomed. In a way, I wonder if leaving Rooney and Cayton was a way to sabatoge his career because he said he wanted to retire after Spinks...but that may be giving him to much credit even for a kid of his "street talents" Look what Tyson said in the documentary that was very important: He said Cus taught him how to box...and because of that, nobody was going to F*** with him anymore. Something on those lines. You see, with the knowledge of boxing, with the training, with the answers on how to box certain fighters and commands set by someone like Cus or Rooney...Tyson seemed OK. It was when he didn't have those people to lean on for the answers and had to rely on himself, he failed...and failed big. I would even say that he probably wouldn't have been Champion, like Atlas kind of said...if he hadn't ended up in Catskill. Maybe if he had a trainer like, Ray Arcel...yeah...or even George Benton...maybe...but you have to have those rare breed of trainers that could work with him. Tyson was no General...he was no Ali. He was a soldier. Could that soldier have gone rogue? Yeah...why not. One thing Rooney said was that he didn't feel Cus had enough time with Mike. Basically, he was an unfinished and rushed project. Cus's finished projects were Patterson and Torres. Forget how Cus put it so if you heard it and know it exact, let me know to rewrite it...here it is: I am not a success when I make a Champion...but when I make a Champion and he can become independent of me. One thing I've discussed before with someone else is how Tyson declined: With each fight away from Rooney, old habits continued to rise up. He started to hold more and wasn't as active in fights. After prison, we saw him foul more, hold more...get frustrated a lot more. And to cap it off, it was noted in the McBride fight that Tyson was biting his gloves...something he hadn't done since his amateur days. That is something I never knew and found that incredible.

None of it would have worked if Tyson wasn't good. The Speed, agility, boxing ability, Power, agrression...were all there to help. He was a 5'11, 215 pound HW. You can build a guy up all you want but it has to show or nobody will believe it Oh, I agree entirely. Technically, Tyson had everything. As is the case with almost all big hitters his power was generated from the heels up. He had the full array of shots - hooks, crosses, uppercuts - even a half-decent jab when he bothered to use it. He was fit and he was fast. Way too fast for almost everyone in the division. And he had superb head movement. It's something that we seem to be seeing less of lately. Can't understand why. And D'Amato couldn't have sold the package any better. But it only had a very limited lifespan. Living with Tyson and controlling the purse strings he could make sure he stuck to the gameplan. But it must have been increasingly difficult to keep the house of cards from collapsing as his profile and achievements grew. Even with Cus around - it was never going to end happily. Sooner or later he'd face someone who a) wasn't affected by Tyson's "baddest man on the planet" aura b) had some degree of ability and c) would not be bullied in the ring. And 'C' is the important condition. Because with Tyson everything revolved around bullying. Bullying his opponent. Bullying by Cus. Bullying women (sexually). Bullying by the kids he grew up with. He was terrified of being bullied. He still is. The psychological hang ups (which Cus and his team used cynically for their own ends) were immense. So much so that when I see him being pummelled by Holyfield (who NO ONE was going to bully) - standing there in the middle of the ring with an almost childish expression of dumb bewilderment across his face I genuinely feel sorry for the guy.

TYSON doesn't belong on any top 10 all time great list. He'd be lucky to make it into the top 50, in my opinion. Who'd he beat, exactly, to deserve top 10? The Tyson that fought Spinks, was the greatest Tyson we ever saw. His prime was short, but back in that day he would be VERY dangerous to even the greatest Heavyweights. His ability to work inside the long jab of bigger opponents and his rock solid chin cannot be overlooked. I'm his biggest critic, but he had the total package.

1. muhammad ali 2. joe louis 3. george foreman 4. larry holmes 5. jack dempsey 6. lennox lewis 7. rocky marciano 8. floyd patterson 9. gene tunney 10. sonny liston Good post. Prime to Prime though I would have to put Holyfield higher than Lewis. Even though Holyfield lost to Lewis, he is boxing's true warrior and Lewis has been KO'd by single punches. Holy's inside and outside movement puts him ahead in my book. Everything else seems accurate except I would have to place Tyson (IN HIS SHORT PRIME) ahead of Tunney. Even though Lewis has proved himself in the eyes of many to be the generation's best HW, in my book Holyfield was the most complete fighter.

TYSON doesn't belong on any top 10 all time great list. He'd be lucky to make it into the top 50, in my opinion. Who'd he beat, exactly, to deserve top 10?

I hesitate to use the word "earned" because I don't think it's the entire truth. I give D'Amato most of the credit. He knew the boxing business front to back - training right through to promotion. In Tyson he saw precisely the tool he could use to unlock the gates to the big time once again. The HW division was not in the greatest of health. There hadn't been a genuinely aggressive (and good) hitter seen for some time. The opportunity was there - for the right kind of guy. The problem was Tyson WASN'T the right kind of guy. Sure, he had tremendous boxing ability - but he was suffering from severe psychological problems which would threaten to unravel any carefully laid plans from the very beginning. So old Cus decided to bluff it out. After all, perception is reality - or so the marketing people say. The very "defects" (his surly demeanour, mood swings etc) that Cus and his team were worried about were sold as the ravings of some kind of beastial man. "Kid Dynamite" was simply too tame a nickname and so the myth (call it an aura) of Iron Mike - The Baddest Man on the Planet was born. Cus knew the HW division was in such a weak state that he could get Tyson all the way to the top without facing guys who might ask one or two difficult questions. And as the wins kept coming the aura continued to grow. To the point where fighters were beaten before they'd even stepped in the same arena. It was a masterstroke. Old Cus' plan worked to perfection. The fact that Tyson disintegrated after the Douglas bout probably wouldn't have bothered him (had he been around). Indeed, he might have been surprised at just how long Mike lasted at the top - given the problems he had between his ears. Cus used Tyson from the very beginning and got all the adulation he'd craved for - and more besides. What that says about him as a human being is something else. None of it would have worked if Tyson wasn't good. The Speed, agility, boxing ability, Power, agrression...were all there to help. He was a 5'11, 215 pound HW. You can build a guy up all you want but it has to show or nobody will believe it. Disagree: If D'Amato was around and saw what Tyson was doing he would have bitched him out...but like Tyson said...none of that would have happened if Cus was around...he was to afraid of Cus and did what he was told. It was discipline that helped Tyson get to the top and it was not being disciplined that led to his fall. Tyson started to fall apart before the Douglas bout. Even with Rooney, towards the end, in the build-up to Spinks, he was having trouble outside the ring with everything that was choas in his life and basically feeling he was alone. He was still quite young when he fought Spinks and he was the most well known athlete in the World...and married. This was talked about before. It's also why he talked about retiring after Spinks. Have many videos I can put up if you want. What Cus and Jacbos provided for Tyson was security. They provided Tyson with answers on how to deal with things...on how to be a Champion...a road map if you will to get to the top and stay at the top. Without them, without his guide(s)...he fell apart. Lennox used his Mother to help guide him...as well as Emanuel to make him a better boxer and instruct him. Ali used his family and belief in God/NOI and also had Dundee to match him up. Foreman needed a decade off before being mentally strong again after finding "God" after falling apart after Ali. People use/rely on tools to help them succeed...Tyson was no different. "I don't try to intimidate anybody before a fight," Tyson said. "That's nonsense. I intimidate people by hitting them." ~Tyson

tyson would of koed fraizer with ease i also think he would of beat foreman and ali you can say hes overated n shit but look how the people dropped when he koed them look at his speed look at how he bobs and weaves mike tyson best fighter that ever lived wrong on every level

tyson would of koed fraizer with ease i also think he would of beat foreman and ali you can say hes overated n shit but look how the people dropped when he koed them look at his speed look at how he bobs and weaves mike tyson best fighter that ever lived

1. muhammad ali 2. joe louis 3. george foreman 4. larry holmes 5. jack dempsey 6. lennox lewis 7. rocky marciano 8. floyd patterson 9. gene tunney 10. sonny liston very good list

Way to hard for me to make a list.Haven't seen as much footage and haven't compared alkmost at all as much as I've wished. Ali Louis Johnson I''ll just stop there.

That is a part of the Psychology of Boxing. Same happened to opponents that fought Liston and Foreman. Even Ali used psychological warfare to gain an edge. By the way, how did Tyson get that "aura"? I hesitate to use the word "earned" because I don't think it's the entire truth. I give D'Amato most of the credit. He knew the boxing business front to back - training right through to promotion. In Tyson he saw precisely the tool he could use to unlock the gates to the big time once again. The HW division was not in the greatest of health. There hadn't been a genuinely aggressive (and good) hitter seen for some time. The opportunity was there - for the right kind of guy. The problem was Tyson WASN'T the right kind of guy. Sure, he had tremendous boxing ability - but he was suffering from severe psychological problems which would threaten to unravel any carefully laid plans from the very beginning. So old Cus decided to bluff it out. After all, perception is reality - or so the marketing people say. The very "defects" (his surly demeanour, mood swings etc) that Cus and his team were worried about were sold as the ravings of some kind of beastial man. "Kid Dynamite" was simply too tame a nickname and so the myth (call it an aura) of Iron Mike - The Baddest Man on the Planet was born. Cus knew the HW division was in such a weak state that he could get Tyson all the way to the top without facing guys who might ask one or two difficult questions. And as the wins kept coming the aura continued to grow. To the point where fighters were beaten before they'd even stepped in the same arena. It was a masterstroke. Old Cus' plan worked to perfection. The fact that Tyson disintegrated after the Douglas bout probably wouldn't have bothered him (had he been around). Indeed, he might have been surprised at just how long Mike lasted at the top - given the problems he had between his ears. Cus used Tyson from the very beginning and got all the adulation he'd craved for - and more besides. What that says about him as a human being is something else.

I never said anything supporting Marciano. When did I ever say Marciano should be on there? Never, so your argument doesn't work with me. And no, Marciano wasn't even a real HW, he shouldn't be on there. Just pointing it out since most have him on the list which includes "Historians"

The Spinks fight is a pretty complicated issue. On the one hand there is no doubt that Spinks had an excellent record and certainly LOOKED the part. But on the other you kind of question his credibility by the performance he put on - or didn't. He was a shambles. If ever a guy was beaten before he entered the ring by the aura of his opponent Spinks is it. That is a part of the Psychology of Boxing. Same happened to opponents that fought Liston and Foreman. Even Ali used psychological warfare to gain an edge. By the way, how did Tyson get that "aura"?

1. Joe Louis 2. Muhammed Ali 3. George Foreman 4. Joe Frazier 5. Rocky Marciano 6. Lennox Lewis 7. Larry Holmes 8. Sonny Liston 9. Jack Johnson 10. Evander Holyfield

Good choice. :beerchug:. Thank you :D The guy was big, had willpower and could box, he is underrated.

1. Muhammad Ali 2. George Foreman 3. Joe Louis 4. Lennox Lewis 5. Larry Holmes 6. Evander Holyfield 7. Joe Frazier 8. Emmanuel Pacquiao 9. Idi Amin 10. Sonny Liston Good choice. :beerchug:.