Could Smoking Joe Beat Tyson?

Should have made this a poll. Joe Frazier would have killed Tyson. tyson has no heart. No motivation = lack of need = lack of training = lack of confidence = lack of heart. You build heart. We all know Gatti had a huge heart, he still lost.

An Interview With Boxing Historian Herbert G. Goldman Another man-- a shame what’s happened to him, and I’d say the only man who could have beaten him eventually did beat him, and that was himself—Mike Tyson. Now Mike Tyson’s style—talking about a boxer learning from boxers of the past—and it’s amazing that more has not been made of this. Mike Tyson’s style is Jack Dempsey, completely. The way he comes in quickly with a bob and weave, ducks down low and comes up with a smashing left hook to the larger man’s head and face, that’s Jack Dempsey. When Tyson turned pro he even came into the ring with the sides of his head shaven in emulation of Jack Dempsey. There is no doubt about this. No socks, low shoes, black trunks. This was a young man who studied old fight films like crazy. And he found that the style of Jack Dempsey was more conducive to his own abilities than any other style. And that’s what he developed. KD -- I always felt that Tyson was a small heavyweight and he was often misunderstood and under-rated in terms of the level of genuine skill that he brought into the ring. HG -- That’s right. A lot of people did not understand what they were watching when they saw Mike Tyson. He was not some slugger as such. KD -- He was not a super-power in terms of his physical strength HG -- Oh no. One thing about Mike Tyson that I don’t think a lot of people understand because of, let’s say his psychological-social problems, a lot of people think he’s some kind of stupid brute. He’s not. He happens to be, as far as I can see-- and I don’t know the man but I have had a couple of conversations with him-- an intelligent young man. He’s probably one of the most intelligent fighters, certainly in terms of boxing, that we’ve seen. His emulation of the Jack Dempsey’s style. His knowledge of boxing history is considerable, by the way, and when you listen to him, this is not a stupid man. He’s a very misunderstood boxer, and people also do not understand that his skills eroded after a certain period. People will say Ah he was never anything,. They start to question him all the way back. No. He peaked when he knocked out Michael Spinks in the first round. But beginning about a year after that he really started to go down hill. KD -- That was a period when he had separated from Rooney, his remaining D’Amato trainer, and he no longer had a real trainer who understood his style. HG -- Right. Tyson was a fighter who needed a certain edge. He needed to be on edge. And when he lost that he lost a tremendous amount. He still has too much power and over-all ability for ninety or ninety-five percent of all the fighters out there. There’s no question about that. But at his peak I can’t imagine—and I say this with all respect and deference for Evander Holyfield—but at his peak I can’t imagine Tyson being defeated by Holyfield. At his peak he would have been a terrific fight even for the peak Muhammad Ali. http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/w42x-kd.htm

Brooks always held out hope for Iron Mike -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By Adrian Wojnarowski Special to ESPN.com Beyond the promise of a series of solid paydays for training Mike Tyson, Tommy Brooks always had a fleeting belief that if he just could reach Tyson, just get him to listen, get him to work, Tyson could still be the best heavyweight fighter in the world. According to Mike Tyson's recently fired trainer, Iron Mike just doesn't want to work hard anymore. After all the years, all the disgrace, Brooks was certain Tyson could still do it. Beyond the wild nights, the disgusting, criminal acts, Tommy Brooks believed he could turn the raw rage and punching power into that long-gone 20-year-old machine. "He's got more talent in his little finger than most all the rest of them," Brooks said. "Even now." This is the tease of Tyson. This is what keeps everyone coming back again and again. "(Tyson's) been cutting corners for so long, I'm not sure he knows another way now," Brooks said. "I'm regretful that a guy with so much talent and ability just went down the tubes. That's why I left Evander Holyfield. But if I had any indication that my watch with him would be like this, I would've stayed with Evander." Looking back, Brooks should've had every indication: There are no happy endings with this man. In the end, there's just disappointment, disillusionment and disgust. On the eve of Tyson playing his part as America's carnival act at a New York news conference Tuesday, there came a call to Brooks' New Jersey office. Tyson fired him. Actually, Tyson's people fired him. Brooks wasn't surprised. Tyson and the trainer hadn't talked for several months. The fighter is struggling to meet his payroll. After handling Tyson for the six fights since the end of his year-long suspension for flipping out on Holyfield, guess who was going? Do you think it was going to be Tyson's Yes-men enablers, or the trainer unafraid to tell the fighter the painful truth? "I'm disappointed that I didn't see the guy back to the title," Brooks said. "But I'm relieved that I don't have to deal with the idiots around him anymore. You've got guys backstabbing you, undermining what you're trying to accomplish in the gym. A majority of them didn't see the big picture. They were just living paycheck to paycheck from him." Which is what most of boxing does with Tyson, feed off him payday to payday. Everybody gets rich on his bad act. With Brooks, Tyson had little chance to beat Lewis. Without him, he has none. Even so, there's a good chance that Tyson never makes it to Vegas on April 6. It's ridiculous to think the melee in Manhattan could be the foundation for the Nevada Boxing Commission refusing to license Tyson. What, now Tyson's nuts? All of a sudden that proves it? Come on. If they were going to let him fight before Tuesday, they should let him fight now. "He's crazy like a fox," Brooks said. What people ought to be outraged about with Tyson isn't the staged lunacy of a news conference, but the revelation that charges could be brought against him for an alleged rape in Nevada. Again. This should inspire the rage of the moralists. The press conference? That's what people want out of Tyson, what they come to see, what they expect. For that alleged victim visiting Tyson's Las Vegas home months ago there are no tidy clips for the nightly news, no x-rated sound bites for the boom mikes. She's an alleged part of Tyson's act, part of his twisted persona, and that didn't seem so important to his Vegas licensing hearing until his WWF moment in New York. "Every time he's done something, he's come back," Brooks said. "He's like a bus wreck waiting to happen, but he always skirts (trouble). I told him many times, 'We live in a society. They've got rules and ethics, and if you don't conform, they've got a place for you.' They'll only put up with it so long. I hope to God that Mike doesn't get put in that place, because this time, he won't last there." Perhaps Tyson belongs back in prison. Once more, the criminal justice system will decide. Even without the looming charges, there's this question on the sheer merits of his fight record: Does he deserve a title shot, never mind this ridiculous two-fight series? More than that, does Tyson truly want the fight? "At times he does and at times, he doesn't," Brooks said. "If he could go fight Lewis and not train, he'd do it. He'd just show up and take his best shot on sheer ability. Mike only trained for two weeks, and he made it 11 rounds with Holyfield." This is the lure of Tyson. This is the tease. People still think there's one more great fight in him, one final flash of a long ago glory. But there isn't. He's done. Trouble is, it's hard to stop watching him. Tommy Brooks understands. It's hard resisting the possibilities, harder to truly believe they're gone now. All gone. Adrian Wojnarowski is a sports columnist for The Record (Northern N.J.) and a regular contributor to ESPN.com. More from ESPN... Brooks let go as Tyson trainer Respected trainer Tommy ... WBC ready to sanction Lewis-Tyson fight The Lennox Lewis-Mike Tyson ... Tyson: 'Miscommunication' led to pre-fight brawl Saying he's not ``Mr. ... WWF? Enraged Tyson incites pre-fight brawl Mike Tyson must have thought ... Adrian Wojnarowski Archive http://espn.go.com/columns/wojnarowski_adrian/1317765.html

It's not coming up for me. Anyway, my point was Holyfield had Tyson's number, and though Tyson was past his prime, so was Evander. He at least would have made a competitive fight against him at any time. And Evander was a small HW, just like Joe was. So you can't use the logic that you had to be huge to have any chance against Mike. Mike had ad in speed, power, combinations Joe had ad in chin and endurance. I wouldn't bet the house on Frazier but he definitely had a chance. I still don't get how you anybody can use Tyson after he stopped training properly as a legit fighter, especially the version that came out of jail, missing 3 years. Everybody says it is mostly mental...well, Tyson wasn't there. It's bad enough he was having problems outside of the ring even when he was still on top of his game with Rooney, but we all saw his attitude towards life/boxing after the Spinks fight in the post-fight press-conference. One of the big problems I had with Tyson was his mental game. Maybe it was because he was still basically a kid, but he needed someone like Rooney training him and even instructing him during fights to be successful. Tyson still showed negatives, like all fighters, even with Rooney, but it was Rooney who guided him along and got him back on track each time. For Holyfield: id Tyson didn't train properly/hard for the first fight. He did however train for the second fight, but it really doesn't matter with Tyson since he was never their mentally. If you also notice in the Holyfield fight, Tyson hurt Evander in the first round, but didn't have the proper follow up to continue to break him down. His timing and accuracy were also off. Tyson also hurt Evander to the body bad and Mike didn't follow up properly. He should have continued to go to the body but he was to much of a head-hunter and through it away. The one attack Mike was great at when he was young, except in the Pinky fight which he didn't do much body-attacking (which was a big mistake), Evander seemed vulnerable to because he didn't have a thick waist padded with extra meat. Before anybody gets going, I'm not saying Tyson was the best or beats anyboy, no such thing, but I am saying he was a different fighter.

Yeah the pic just showed how huge Bowe is compared to Holyfield. I can't get those viewimages.com images to work either.

Another pic of Holyfield and Bowe. http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/239497.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0EDAA6554F06D2FCF9A284831B75F48EF45 It's not coming up for me. Anyway, my point was Holyfield had Tyson's number, and though Tyson was past his prime, so was Evander. He at least would have made a competitive fight against him at any time. And Evander was a small HW, just like Joe was. So you can't use the logic that you had to be huge to have any chance against Mike. Mike had ad in speed, power, combinations Joe had ad in chin and endurance. I wouldn't bet the house on Frazier but he definitely had a chance.

Another pic of Holyfield and Bowe. http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/239497.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0EDAA6554F06D2FCF9A284831B75F48EF45

http://cache.viewimages.com/xc/225227.jpg?v=1&c=ViewImages&k=2&d=17A4AD9FDB9CF1934A2752006EF5F0ED06B69A7162518EA9284831B75F48EF45 http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1180000/images/_1182629_holyfield_bowe150.jpg Lol you have Holyfield standing straight up with his head bent forward and Bowe doubled over and they're still the same height, proving my point, thanks. If you saw the fights, Bowe was a lot taller. At least 2 inches, maybe 3. http://www.midwestwrestling.com/images2/boxlarge.JPG

Its certainly not a clear cut field either way, is it. The videos our Finnish friend posted showed how destructive and busy Joe was and the ones I posted showed what happened when he came up against a freak of nature in George, but that in itself isn't enough as 1) the freak of nature that is Tyson also has destructive power, but not the same tools as George, reach vs speed Fraizer coped with handspeed - Jimmy and Ali than reach - George. 2) Courage - Joe had it in spades, he didn't flinch at a rematch with George so he wouldn't have been mentally effected by Tyson like some of those that were beaten before they stepped in the ring 3) Stamina - George could go 15 rounds, so the 'survive the onslaught argument for 6 rounds then turn the tables' can't be dismissed You've already had my opinion, past prime but I've jsut talked my way out of a definite opinion on the thread now!!! I'm off to think see you later!! lol

If Joe gets past round 5, From then on its his Fight. IMO

Some Frazier vid's: Frazier destroys "Ziggy" Zyglewicz in the first round. Frazier destroys Jimmy Ellis and unifies the world title. Frazier destroys Bob Foster in two. Frazier defeats Ali and captures the linear heavyweight championship. Frazier stops Ron Stander who had recently beaten Earnie Shavers. Frazier stops Jerry Quarry.

Some Frazier vid's: Frazier destroys "Ziggy" Zyglewicz in the first round. Frazier destroys Jimmy Ellis and unifies the world title. Frazier destroys Bob Foster in two. Frazier defeats Ali and claims the linear heavyweight championship.

Frazier could win, never say never. I think though that more often than not Tyson beats Frazier. Tyson = fast starter Frazier = slow starter. Frazier only has a chance if he makes it past round 5. I'd never count Joe out and a non prime form (a different argument, I concede) a past prime Joe takes a past prime Tyson, but not the other way. Reckon George would have stopped Mike if he caught him!

re my previous post, Tyson would be faster than George, but he wouldn't have the reach advantage to psuh Joe off like George did (looked like a dad sparring with his teenage son!!) the second fight was similar, give Joe F props fro taking that kind of punishment and shows how much Ali must have taken on his arms before he turned the tables. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X_ylqtVvzTE&feature=related Love Frazier's stunt turning up with a clean head under his hood!

Frazier could win, never say never. I think though that more often than not Tyson beats Frazier. Tyson = fast starter Frazier = slow starter. Frazier only has a chance if he makes it past round 5.

Same here. Technically sound fighters like Ali, Lewis, Holyfield beat Tyson everytime prime for prime at their bests, but Frazier liked to slug it too and if he slugged with a Prime Tyson, then I think Mikey would win. Very good post, you've only got to see what happened when someone bigger, who liked going forward, went in with him (i.e George Foreman) Obviously Foreman and Tyson fought differently, but they were both bigger hitters. My prediciton see below!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpEuGaRp9l8

If Joe is still there in the second half of the fight, he owns Mike. I agree. Mike would have had a decent chance to stop Joe early, but if he didn't, he'd be in trouble. And Joe had a hell of a lot more heart than Tyson and would keep getting back up and coming after him. Mike didn't know how to react to people that weren't afraid of him.

Anything's possible, but I'll go with Tyson on this one.

Dont trust boxrec dude, its unreliable. I have Holyfield's autobiography and it said he was 6'3, he is listed at 6'2 1/2 but boxrec has a lot of heights wrong. I don't go by Boxrec, I judge how they look next to other people in the ring. How is it "6'3"" Holyfield was dwarfed by 6'4" Riddick Bowe? How is it Evander looked close to the same height as Ibragimov, who was completely dwarfed by Shannon Briggs, who is 6'4" also.

If Joe is still there in the second half of the fight, he owns Mike.