Wille Pep and Sandy Saddler

[BattlingNelson]

Espn ranks Saddler as the 29th boxer all-time:

29. Sandy Saddler

Featherweight, junior lightweight Ring career: 1944-57 Record: 144-16-2 (103 KOs)
Career notes: Tall and skinny for a featherweight. ***8230; Frequently chastised for regular recourse to rough-and-tumble tactics, although also possessed good boxing skills. ***8230; Only opponent to regularly get better of Willie Pep, whom he beat three times out of four, all victories coming inside the distance. ***8230; Won featherweight championship in first bout, in October 1948, before losing it in rematch four months later. ***8230; Won junior lightweight belt in December 1949. ***8230; After two defenses, abdicated crown to concentrate again on featherweight division. ***8230; Reclaimed championship from Pep in 1950. ***8230; Held on to title until 1956, although two of those years were spent inactive while in Army. ***8230; Retired as champion in January 1957 as result of vision problems stemming from an auto accident.

And Pep at no. 5:

5. Willie Pep

Featherweight
Ring career: 1940-66 Record: 230-11-1 (65 KOs)
Career notes: Two-time world featherweight champion renowned for legendary defensive skills. ***8230; Achieved tremendous success despite suffering near-fatal injuries in a plane crash in 1947. ***8230; Legend that says he once won a round without throwing a punch (he almost certainly did not) is testament to defensive wizardry of "Will o' the Wisp." ***8230; Won first 63 bouts before losing to Sammy Angott, and then went 72-0-1 before losing again, to Sandy Saddler. ***8230; Only Saddler was ever truly able to figure him out, winning three of four times in bouts that were frequently brutal and foul-filled.

Ring Magazine ranked Pep at no. 6 and Saddler as no. 15 among the 80 best fighters in the past 80 years.

[BKM-2010]

I can appreciate the view that Pep had the style and skills, plus title reign, but does all that not gloss over the fact that Saddler was the better man when the two met in the ring 3 out of 4 times.

It seems to me that Pep in some regards gets a pass on Saddler.

I think it also has to do with Saddler having a large size and strength advantage over Pep who had to use every amount of skill he had just to win against him.

And as if the size advantage wasn't enough, Saddler had to use every dirty tactic in the book against the little man as well.

Consider that we're ranking pound for pound, I'm not surprised Pep is ranked above him by most people.

[joeandthebums]

Just speculating, but it might have to do with it being after the plane crash that Pep was in. I've heard people say that he was never quite the same again.

Some have mentioned the plane crash, but I think having once had a fractured vertebrae or fractured leg is a simplified explanation for Pep's losses to Saddler.

Styles make fights so I wouldn't say just because Saddler beat Pep 3 times out of 4 that necessarily makes him better.

Can you think of any instances where one boxer has bested another over a series and is not considered the better boxer?

I think it also has to do with Saddler having a large size and strength advantage over Pep who had to use every amount of skill he had just to win against him.

Saddler had advantages in height and reach, but he was no giant to Pep.

And as if the size advantage wasn't enough, Saddler had to use every dirty tactic in the book against the little man as well.

Saddler was not talked of as a "dirty" fighter until the third and fourth Pep fights.

Though they both spoke of the other committing fouls in the first two bouts it was when Pep retired from the third and accused Saddler of foul tactics to support his claim of a dislocated shoulder, which the X-Ray examination that followed failed to substantiate, when Saddler gained the reputation of a dirty fighter.

Both were guilty of fouling in the fourth contest, but who would you say ensured that was the theme of the night?

[BKM-2010]

Some have mentioned the plane crash, but I think having once had a fractured vertebrae or fractured leg is a simplified explanation for Pep's losses to Saddler.



Can you think of any instances where one boxer has bested another over a series and is not considered the better boxer?





Saddler had advantages in height and reach, but he was no giant to Pep.



Saddler was not talked of as a "dirty" fighter until the third and fourth Pep fights.

Though they both spoke of the other committing fouls in the first two bouts it was when Pep retired from the third and accused Saddler of foul tactics to support his claim of a dislocated shoulder, which the X-Ray examination that followed failed to substantiate, when Saddler gained the reputation of a dirty fighter.

Both were guilty of fouling in the fourth contest, but who would you say ensured that was the theme of the night?

4 inches of height, 2 inches of reach and I don't know how much weight he had over Pep during the fight but he was simply bigger and stronger, this was obvious. This was made worse for Pep as he would often crouch up close and Saddler could lean his weight on him.

As for his dirty tactics, I haven't seen all of Saddler's available fights but I know he was dirty against Pep. He would hold and uppercut during clinches so much that Pep was training Judo just to cope with that.

Surely you can see how people would hold all of that against Saddler in a pound for pound discussion.

[joeandthebums]

4 inches of height, 2 inches of reach

As I said, Saddler was no giant in comparison to Pep.

and I don't know how much weight he had over Pep during the fight

1st: Pep by 1½ pounds
2nd: Pep by 2 pounds
3rd: Same weight
4th: Saddler ½ pound

but he was simply bigger and stronger, this was obvious.

I agree but the two were in the same weight class, Pep did not step up to meet Saddler.

As for his dirty tactics, I haven't seen all of Saddler's available fights but I know he was dirty against Pep. He would hold and uppercut during clinches so much that Pep was training Judo just to cope with that.

Saddler was dirty against Pep. Okay. Was Pep dirty against Saddler?

Surely you can see how people would hold all of that against Saddler in a pound for pound discussion.

Yes I can understand why Pep is placed above Saddler in the pound-for-pound sense, yet both were at the same weight and Saddler came out on top, so you can add or take weight from the pair and they'll still have the same strengths and weaknesses - so the result would not differ.

If the two had been a generation or two apart and never met I have no doubt Saddler would only be given a "puncher's chance" to defeat Pep.

[billeau2]

Well we have the Jones Tarver trilogy....But there was such a disparity that this issue of who is better never came up.

[Humean]

Though they both spoke of the other committing fouls in the first two bouts it was when Pep retired from the third and accused Saddler of foul tactics to support his claim of a dislocated shoulder, which the X-Ray examination that followed failed to substantiate, when Saddler gained the reputation of a dirty fighter.

Both were guilty of fouling in the fourth contest, but who would you say ensured that was the theme of the night?

Pep's typical holding tactics could certainly be illegal so Pep wasn't exactly a 'clean' fighter himself never mind the rest of his antics in the Saddler fights. What I find interesting about Pep is that he 'quit' in two of the Saddler fights and yet his heart doesn't seem to get questioned when i'm sure other fighters heart would be. Also Pep probably took a dive in at least one (Perez) fight, maybe two (Collins). Pep does seem to be above reproach.

[soul_survivor]

Pep had the better resume and was better skill wise. Saddler was a better puncher and probably more fun to watch, not to mention he often put a beating on Pep. What we have to remember, Pep was no longer a prime fighter and was coming back from a terrible accident.

Pep is, in any way of grading ATGs, one of the absolute best, I'd probably rank him over Armstrong. That in no way diminishes how good Saddler was.

[IronDanHamza]

Some have mentioned the plane crash, but I think having once had a fractured vertebrae or fractured leg is a simplified explanation for Pep's losses to Saddler.



Can you think of any instances where one boxer has bested another over a series and is not considered the better boxer?





Saddler had advantages in height and reach, but he was no giant to Pep.



Saddler was not talked of as a "dirty" fighter until the third and fourth Pep fights.

Though they both spoke of the other committing fouls in the first two bouts it was when Pep retired from the third and accused Saddler of foul tactics to support his claim of a dislocated shoulder, which the X-Ray examination that followed failed to substantiate, when Saddler gained the reputation of a dirty fighter.

Both were guilty of fouling in the fourth contest, but who would you say ensured that was the theme of the night?

Not many, if any.

I scored the Pacquaio-Marquez fights 3-0-1 in favour of Marquez. Certainly debatable but even though I scored it that way I'd still consider Pacquaio to be a better fighter than Marquez. Styles do make fights after all.

There is the Cocoa Kid-Holman Williams series. Difficult to judge considering lack of footage but Im sure all would rank Williams higher.

Can't think of any others.

[ShoulderRoll]

Some have mentioned the plane crash, but I think having once had a fractured vertebrae or fractured leg is a simplified explanation for Pep's losses to Saddler.



Can you think of any instances where one boxer has bested another over a series and is not considered the better boxer?





Saddler had advantages in height and reach, but he was no giant to Pep.



Saddler was not talked of as a "dirty" fighter until the third and fourth Pep fights.

Though they both spoke of the other committing fouls in the first two bouts it was when Pep retired from the third and accused Saddler of foul tactics to support his claim of a dislocated shoulder, which the X-Ray examination that followed failed to substantiate, when Saddler gained the reputation of a dirty fighter.

Both were guilty of fouling in the fourth contest, but who would you say ensured that was the theme of the night?

Interesting facts there. I don't know a whole lot about Saddler but it seems like there might be more to his rivalry with Pep than the usual "he had a size advantage and fought dirty" storyline that is usually accepted as gospel.

I do believe that Pep lost something after the accident, though.