If Andre Ward is genuinely retired...

[soul_survivor]

Of course not. But you have to consider when and how fighters on a particular resume we're beat. I'd argue Wards resume is better than most at 168 and beyond p4p considering the time table. He did beat a very good Froch and Kessler. He beat Kov twice no matter you stance on either fight. Take the skills and h2h aspect in and he is firmly above Zags and Froch in my opinion. It's just opinion of course and I say this with all due respect for you.

The Kov win has nothing to do with super middleweight.

Froch has wins over Abraham, Kessler (arguably twice), Dirrell, Taylor, Bute, Groves 2x and Pascal.

Ward's best wins at the weight are Froch, Kessler, Abraham and you could maybe throw in Bika or Dawson.

Froch's wins were not only more spectacular they came about in largely non controversial fashion.

Outside of beating Froch, who did Ward beat clean at the top of their game? Bika was past it, Abraham was thoroughly beaten against Froch and had his best years beaten out of him. The Kessler fight was an ugly foul filled home job.

Ward's time or rather, depth at super middle is hugely overrated, considering his time in the super six consisted of 2 fighters who werent supposed to be there and then he refused to fight Bute when it mattered.

Froch also holds 2 spectacular wins over a guy who has cemented his place as one of the top super middles of the post Froch/Ward era and a win over THE light heavyweight in the years that followed (Pascal).

I don't see how Ward simply beating Froch is enough for him to supersede Froch's superior career. It certainly isn't even close to Calzaghe or Eubank and their careers.

There is no other way around it on an objective basis.

[Sugar Adam Ali]

#1 at 168

Def an atg

Lock for top 100


The dude hasn't lost since he was 12..

Gold medal
Undefeated
P4p
Super six winner
168 kingpin

Icing on the cake is moving up in weight and beating kovolev twice

[TheThirdEye]

It's weird how no one mentioned but notice from Andre Ward.
- He'll have to ask Al to come out and play.
- Why now, I'm not even thinking about this guy right now.
- I just got up in weight and I fought the number 1 guy.
- No disrespect to him, but he's a step back, I'm not trying to go back.
- Between me and him, it has to make sense.
- He had opportunities, he disqualified himself.
- I wanted to fight at heavyweights, it's a dream of mine.
- There's open negotiations with Bellew team.
- His team didn't try to reach us.
- How come I fought Kov twice before he does it once.
+ Eddie Hearn: Ward was negotiating a fight against LHW Frank Buglioni, but Buglioni rejected the offer.
- I'm retiring, my body can't take it anymore.
- I did what I say I would do, mission accomplish.
+ Virgil Hunter: There was no money to do against this guy, because he only fights in Canada.

Ward clan never mentioned anything related with Lineal title, WBC, or Undisputed. They carefully did everything to avoid the 40 years old boxer. They pile up excuses over excuses trying hard to make fans forget about the Undisputed title.
The truth is, Andre Ward ducked Adonis Stevenson by retiring, instead of trying to become Undisputed.
I mean, Ward may come back, only when they'll feel Stevenson's no longer a threat; when he'll be gone...

[Larry the boss]

Would Ward rank higher at 168 than Roy Jones?

easily..Roy did not do much at 168

[Joe Beamish]

Real 168 with same day weigh-in?

I see Ward as a 175 guy.

Too many great fighters for him to rank very high there.

[billeau2]

The Kov win has nothing to do with super middleweight.

Froch has wins over Abraham, Kessler (arguably twice), Dirrell, Taylor, Bute, Groves 2x and Pascal.

Ward's best wins at the weight are Froch, Kessler, Abraham and you could maybe throw in Bika or Dawson.

Froch's wins were not only more spectacular they came about in largely non controversial fashion.

Outside of beating Froch, who did Ward beat clean at the top of their game? Bika was past it, Abraham was thoroughly beaten against Froch and had his best years beaten out of him. The Kessler fight was an ugly foul filled home job.

Ward's time or rather, depth at super middle is hugely overrated, considering his time in the super six consisted of 2 fighters who werent supposed to be there and then he refused to fight Bute when it mattered.

Froch also holds 2 spectacular wins over a guy who has cemented his place as one of the top super middles of the post Froch/Ward era and a win over THE light heavyweight in the years that followed (Pascal).

I don't see how Ward simply beating Froch is enough for him to supersede Froch's superior career. It certainly isn't even close to Calzaghe or Eubank and their careers.

There is no other way around it on an objective basis.

Come on Survivor you are cherry picking wins. Ward has an excellent record and beat the best in his weight class cleanly in a tournament that included Froch etc. Thats as clean as clean can be. It would be like Joshua fighting the best heavyweights and coming out on top, credit where credit is due. Joe never fought anyone at the top of the heap, he stayed put in England and avoided the top fighters. You can't compare.

[soul_survivor]

Come on Survivor you are cherry picking wins. Ward has an excellent record and beat the best in his weight class cleanly in a tournament that included Froch etc. Thats as clean as clean can be. It would be like Joshua fighting the best heavyweights and coming out on top, credit where credit is due. Joe never fought anyone at the top of the heap, he stayed put in England and avoided the top fighters. You can't compare.

I'm not. Tell me which one of his best wins at 168 I missed out? He fought Abraham after Froch had already beaten him in a more physically dominant fashion. The Dirrell fight never came through and Ward ended up fighting Green wasnt it? Green was nowhere near a top 6 smw.

The Kessler win, Wards only other truly top class win at the weight came in very controversial fashion, regardless of agreeing or disagreeing with how that fight was handled.

Froch has more top win and better wins at the weight. It really is simple.

[Anthony342]

So then Ward's legacy overall is as a top 10 all-time super middleweight with a few decent to good wins at light heavy, retiring right after winning The Ring's light heavyweight belt? So great super middle and pretty good light heavyweight?

[billeau2]

I'm not. Tell me which one of his best wins at 168 I missed out? He fought Abraham after Froch had already beaten him in a more physically dominant fashion. The Dirrell fight never came through and Ward ended up fighting Green wasnt it? Green was nowhere near a top 6 smw.

The Kessler win, Wards only other truly top class win at the weight came in very controversial fashion, regardless of agreeing or disagreeing with how that fight was handled.

Froch has more top win and better wins at the weight. It really is simple.

That weight is not a real stalwart division that is one of the original divisions, I don't think one can confine fights to that weight as a serious attempt to show domintion. The tournament was the best idea actually partially for this reason, it allowed one guy to clean the division out...I could see a situation where a guy fought at the middle weight divisions then became a cruiser, or light heavy or something... Especially to chase low hanging fruit... but one cannot accuse Ward of this strategy.

I think it weakens the integrity of your argument when you try to state the common condition of opponents... Even if its true Abraham was not as good, he would have never beaten Ward! Also Froch lost once to Kessler so that obviates a lot of that argument regarding Kessler... Ward beat Kessler pretty easily and... he beat Froch.

On the other hand the argument does have a logic to it that I recognize, while not agreeing with the conclusions: First of all, your right that Froch fought Brute and Groves and Kessler a second time for a win, but we have to counter balance that because Ward fought good competition when he left the division after clearing out the division in the tourney. I would he more inclined to your thinking if we were talking about an original weight class and the surrounding divisions (Middle weights who fought super middle perhaps) and we had a guy who then jumped up to cruiser lets say... especially a guy who jumped up when there was low hanging fruit in the heavier divisions. I would also be more inclined if you didn't have to qualify any of the common opponents both men fought... Ward would have always beat Abraham lol and Froch lost his first fight to Kessler and imo that makes it a little disingenious talking like Ward fought inferior versions.

I do see the argument though and again it has a certain logic to it.

[billeau2]

So then Ward's legacy overall is as a top 10 all-time super middleweight with a few decent to good wins at light heavy, retiring right after winning The Ring's light heavyweight belt? So great super middle and pretty good light heavyweight?

Thats the problem with all these damn divisions! And this post is excellent because it exposes the fact that while it is certainly logical to look at a satelite weight class, and state that a guy stayed there...how does that make him better in any meaningful way?

In other words like I argued with Survivor... Lets say we have a fighter who we will call bob Ward....he fights well at super middle weight and beats andre Ward, his brother... before the tournament that happened in that division. Now lets say "bobby" then goes to light heavyweight and beats a bunch of stiffs eventually besting Jean Mormeck to win the championship in that weight division.

What we could say is that bob's comp and his big jump out of the middle divisions might make his comparative record against his brother look like his performance at the two distinct weights was important and separate when discussing him as a super middle weight compared to Andre. I could see this. But Ward jumped up only one division and fought the best comp, one of the best fighters pound for pound... and a super middle weight is what exactly? A middle weight or a cruiser in the making as far as I can see.