Reparations time. Pay what you owe!!

[Curtis Harper]

It's the same old irrelevant argument that you are trying to make, and it fails miserably. Once again.

1. That Africa played a part in the slave trade does not absolve the United States from the part it played in slavery.

If your father was abducted by kidnappers and I bought your father from them and proceeded to force him into labor and kick the shlt out of him every other day....

Does that mean I am absolved from all wrongdoing because it was someone else who abducted him?

Or course not. That's ******ed.

2. Not all slaves were sold by Africans. Some were taken directly by Europeans.

3. The importation of slaves from Africa was banned in 1808. That means, of course and obviously, that America was breeding its own slaves (not only since 1808, but since America existed), which takes Africa completely out of the equation, but everyone who has posted on the opposite opinion of mine refuses to even acknowledge that I've typed this over and over.

4. An argument can be made that, yes, America did force Africans to sell Africans because the market they created for slaves is what coerced African tribes to sell Africans for fear that if they didn't, they would be either enslaved themselves, conquered, or completely eradicated.



Europeans certainly did. But again, what's the point? Are you now saying, going with my above example, that I'd only be held responsible for enslaving and kicking the shlt out your pops if I put it in the dude's head whom I bought him from to kidnap him?

That's nonsensical, and I think you know that.

Meh......

Africans did THEIR people wrong. Americanized ancestors want to absolve them of this fact. Black slave owners aren't even brought up unless reluctantly.

Back in those days, if there were a sale on people, how many would you buy ? Would you give them a contract so that everything is fair and square ? Should they disobey and/or revolt, you'd be all so understanding ?!?!

Being kind and upstanding human you are, you would buy them and set them free .

You can once again have the last word

[Curtis Harper]

I was following just fine. You however ignored his point that if the institution of slavery didn't already exist at the time, America never would have had slaves.

A topic like this is good for a few comments/replies. Similar to other topics that no amount of ''discussion'' will change.

To make matters worse, topics like this aren't even entertaining. Only arguments and quasi know it all's learnin' the uninformed the ways of the world, will take place. Stacking boring on top of boring.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

Apportioning blame for slavery is going to be a tough thing to do. How are monies to be distributed fairly?
Plenty of people who appear to be white as snow can prove via DNA testing that they have African blood too.

I read several articles because Siablo14 and others feel reparations are in order for the progeny of exslaves.

I think slavery is wrong. That’s all I got.

But, as thought provoking as this topic is, for some reason, I have not seen more that one link posted. I read a lot of guys stating things on both sides, but no links in support of their respective positions.

It's not feasible. Congress would never pass this. They want to get votes. And the resentment from whites and Asians would be terrible and well, they are right. They had nothing to do with slavery and should not be paying anything. If some wealthy folks want to give from their own funds, that's their business but forcing tax payers to flip the bill for something they had nothing to do with will never fly. It's a meaningless argument imo. It's best that we embrace the opportunities we have now and not quibble over past wrongdoings. If we try to right every wrong in history, we'll be blinded while more wrongdoings happen in the present while we focus on the past. If you want to move forward, you have to let the past go. Slavery is and always will be awful but it's been cut down tremendously from what it once was. It used to be the norm and now, clearly it is not. For this, we should be thankful and move on.

[travestyny]

Meh......

Africans did THEIR people wrong. Americanized ancestors want to absolve them of this fact. Black slave owners aren't even brought up unless reluctantly.

Again, this is irrelevant. What you would like to do is to shift blame when blame can't be shifted. America is responsible for the wrongs it has committed, even if others participated. It's not a hard concept to grasp. Everyone acknowledges that African tribes played a part. What you would like to ignore is WHY they played a part, but the point is the fact they did and the why they did is irrelevant, and does not absolve the United States from blame.

Back in those days, if there were a sale on people, how many would you buy ? Would you give them a contract so that everything is fair and square ? Should they disobey and/or revolt, you'd be all so understanding ?!?!

Huh? I don't have a need for slaves, and no I don't want to own a slave.

Being kind and upstanding human you are, you would buy them and set them free .

This is a major reason that some black "slave owners" owned slaves. They bought their wives, siblings, cousins, etc., to free them, though those bought would be technically enslaved to the black family member that bought them.

You can once again have the last word

uh, ok. You didn't really say anything about my last post, but right on.

[travestyny]

It's not feasible. Congress would never pass this. They want to get votes. And the resentment from whites and Asians would be terrible and well, they are right. They had nothing to do with slavery and should not be paying anything. If some wealthy folks want to give from their own funds, that's their business but forcing tax payers to flip the bill for something they had nothing to do with will never fly.

I can somewhat agree with the overall sentiment of your post, but the part I left in above I don't think I agree with.

Again, this is not about, "Your family in the past did this to my family in the past." It's about the United States acknowledging what it did was unjust to a group of people and making amends.

Reparations isn't a new concept. There are plenty of examples of reparations given by the United States. Did you personally put Japanese in internment camps? Did most Americans? Nope, but there were reparations. Did you take the Black Hills from the Sioux Native Americans? I certainly didn't. But there were reparations. Did you force residents out of Rosewood and burn their homes? My guess is no, but there were reparations.


This is not about what you or your family personally did. It seems odd to me that people supposedly (and maybe you're right) would be in an uproar over reparations for slavery, but there wasn't an uproar over the Sioux, the Japanese, Tuskegee Airmen, Rosewood, etc., etc. At least not as far as I know.

When slavery is mentioned, there seems to be something from non-blacks that makes them defensive to the point of anger about it, and honestly that seems to be born out of some sort of resentment for Blacks. It seems in general that people just want blacks to forget about it. No black person should ever be told to just forget that slavery ever happened. Move on from it, of course, but never forget.

[Tony Trick-Pony]

I can somewhat agree with the overall sentiment of your post, but the part I left in above I don't think I agree with.

Again, this is not about, "Your family in the past did this to my family in the past." It's about the United States acknowledging what it did was unjust to a group of people and making amends.

Reparations isn't a new concept. There are plenty of examples of reparations given by the United States. Did you personally put Japanese in internment camps? Did most Americans? Nope, but there were reparations. Did you take the Black Hills from the Sioux Native Americans? I certainly didn't. But there were reparations. Did you force residents out of Rosewood and burn their homes? My guess is no, but there were reparations.


This is not about what you or your family personally did. It seems odd to me that people supposedly (and maybe you're right) would be in an uproar over reparations for slavery, but there wasn't an uproar over the Sioux, the Japanese, Tuskegee Airmen, Rosewood, etc., etc. At least not as far as I know.

When slavery is mentioned, there seems to be something from non-blacks that makes them defensive to the point of anger about it, and honestly that seems to be born out of some sort of resentment for Blacks. It seems in general that people just want blacks to forget about it. No black person should ever be told to just forget that slavery ever happened. Move on from it, of course, but never forget.

My argument is simple. The tax payers would have to fund this and the tax payers had nothing to do with this. So they shouldn't pay. Like I said, if people with money want to contribute, that's their business. I would never try to stop them but asking people who had no part of it to pay is wrong all the way around. It would affect blacks too who have no ancestors who were slaves. Why should they pay? There's nothing wrong with wanting to right an atrocity but I don't agree with these means.

[travestyny]

My argument is simple. The tax payers would have to fund this and the tax payers had nothing to do with this. So they shouldn't pay. Like I said, if people with money want to contribute, that's their business. I would never try to stop them but asking people who had no part of it to pay is wrong all the way around. It would affect blacks too who have no ancestors who were slaves. Why should they pay? There's nothing wrong with wanting to right an atrocity but I don't agree with these means.

I hear what you're saying and I wish the others whom I've talked to about this would just simply say this instead of going all around the mulberry bush with a bunch of bs excuses that make no sense.


But here's the thing. Do you agree with any reparations at all? That's why I mentioned the examples. The Sioux, Rosewood, Tuskegee Airmen, The Japanese during WWII.

I'm guessing the average person didn't have anything to do with these, but as a nation of people we share the nation's burden to right the nation's wrong. Don't you agree? Or should there just be no reparations under any circumstances?

[Tony Trick-Pony]

I hear what you're saying and I wish the others whom I've talked to about this would just simply say this instead of going all around the mulberry bush with a bunch of bs excuses that make no sense.


But here's the thing. Do you agree with any reparations at all? That's why I mentioned the examples. The Sioux, Rosewood, Tuskegee Airmen, The Japanese during WWII.

I'm guessing the average person didn't have anything to do with these, but as a nation of people we share the nation's burden to right the nation's wrong. Don't you agree? Or should there just be no reparations under any circumstances?

I would have to say that I am not. The people paying had nothing to do with the crimes. It's awful that they occurred. I don't disagree on that at all, but no. I think the best thing we can do is appreciate how far we have moved beyond those things and move forward. I am certainly in favor of punishing those who engage in this behavior now but again, not at the price of forcing the innocent tax payers to flip the bill. Like I say though, those who wish to do these things out of charity from their own money are very free to do so. However, a lot of people are struggling to get by. They can't afford to pay these things and forcing them to will only build resentment since they didn't participate in the crimes. Instead, why not take up collections or start a charity for this? I'm sure people would donate. It's always best to get donations voluntarily as opposed to taking them by force through taxes. That's my stance.

It's always good talking with you though, travesty. You are always articulate and think your views and opinions out well. There's a lot to be said for that on this forum or any other.

[travestyny]

I would have to say that I am not. The people paying had nothing to do with the crimes. It's awful that they occurred. I don't disagree on that at all, but no. I think the best thing we can do is appreciate how far we have moved beyond those things and move forward. I am certainly in favor of punishing those who engage in this behavior now but again, not at the price of forcing the innocent tax payers to flip the bill. Like I say though, those who wish to do these things out of charity from their own money are very free to do so. However, a lot of people are struggling to get by. They can't afford to pay these things and forcing them to will only build resentment since they didn't participate in the crimes. Instead, why not take up collections or start a charity for this? I'm sure people would donate. It's always best to get donations voluntarily as opposed to taking them by force through taxes. That's my stance.

It's always good talking with you though, travesty. You are always articulate and think your views and opinions out well. There's a lot to be said for that on this forum or any other.

Good convo. I was just thinking the same thing. It's always good to have a convo with you because though I may not agree, you always seem rational and unbiased. That's rare around these parts.

I've been trying to wrap my head more deeply around the idea of taxation for reparations. I think the idea must be something like this:

2 parts to the equation

1. There is likely the idea that those that were responsible for the institution of slavery were the members of the United States government that were elected by the electorate (making this more juicy--that excludes women and blacks), and in accordance with the way our society works, these representatives being an extension of and representing the electorate, means that blame is rightfully placed on the electorate. So by extension, the voting members of society would be responsible for slavery. Afterall, if the people didn't want it, all they would have to do is vote in abolitionists. I guess the idea is that society failed the slaves.

2. Via the social contract a person has with the country, the same way you are to reap the benefits of being a member of the country, you are to also carry the collective burden. This is why those who were not in the country at the time or were not allowed to vote at that time should pay into it.

Being that the country makes money through taxation, the only way possible for there to ever be any (monetary) reparations is through taxation. If reparations for any wrong is never allowed, that's kinda shltty. The government should right it's wrongs the same way citizens are asked to right their wrongs. Since the government has done so for other groups in the past, even making reparations for things that happened way in the past, I wonder why this hasn't been done for what most believe is the most heinous crime of America.

Sorry if that was too long. I do find this topic more and more interesting the more I dive into it. All types of things come up like sovereign immunity. I guess the bottom line for me is that I think it's fair that a country be asked to make amends for any wrongs it has perpetuated, and the only way this could be possible is through taxation.....unless it's something like free education. I actually like that idea better (though I'm sure this will still have to be financed, and that would lead back to taxes I suppose).

But I respect your opinion, and as always, much respect man. Always a pleasure.

[QueensburyRules]

Hey if you are able to find the linkages and financial links to other past slavery, by all means do it and get reparations for those folks too.

Black folks who were enslaved in the Americas by Europeans can trace back those links and are proceeding forward.

- -Fine if the few blacks in America can trace back those many gens, you the modern 1%ers who will leave your lessor peons in the dust. And when revealed you have Euro heritage mixed in, the debit cancels the credit-accounting 101.

Not to mention so many other variables, not the least being winner take all bipolar political construct with Reps and Dems still dividing the people along the Mason-Dixon Line, only with the Reps controlling the South and Dems the North in an orchestrated swap of skunk stripes.

Civil War II anyone?

You really are quite naive.