Weight lifting and boxing?

[Spartacus Sully]

You are pretty specific in your theory. Do you have any scientific evidence to back these claims up?

which claims? there is alot of stuff im explaining.

Im glad your questioning me, you should also question them too, and maybe do your own research and come to your own conclusions.

No need to blindly listen to any one in this thread, not that you shouldnt listen, just make sure you question everything.

[Facade]

'Their side' of the story I am already familiar with. Therefore I don't really see the need to ask for research as I've already seen most of what will be produced when I ask.

'Your side' I am unfamiliar with and that's why I ask. Although I think I understand what you are describing, I am wondering if what you describe is actually the product of scientific research or the product of deductive reasoning. It's not an explanation I'm looking for, its'proof.

It's not that i'm generally oppposed to what you're saying, but you describe certain mechanics and causality that may seem logical, but are not hard facts without something to back it up. Or perhaps you have a background which is relevant to the issue at hand?

[Spartacus Sully]

'Their side' of the story I am already familiar with. Therefore I don't really see the need to ask for research as I've already seen most of what will be produced when I ask.

'Your side' I am unfamiliar with and that's why I ask. Although I think I understand what you are describing, I am wondering if what you describe is actually the product of scientific research or the product of deductive reasoning. It's not an explanation I'm looking for, its'proof.

It's not that i'm generally oppposed to what you're saying, but you describe certain mechanics and causality that may seem logical, but are not hard facts without something to back it up. Or perhaps you have a background which is relevant to the issue at hand?

it all tends to either be facts or based on facts. again, if you like to point out the specific claims id be glad to provide you with what i can.

[Facade]

Explosive strength is not a matter of fast or slow twitch, it is a matter of motor neuron activation.

This is pretty much the epicenter of this debate, so I would like to see something concrete to back this up. The bird argument leaves too many variables open to establish causality between slow twitch and speed.

you do light weight exercises for speed and endurance

Is there any scientific evidence to suggest that training in the particular manner you describe (low weight 20+ reps focused on speed) actually increases your speed.

[Spartacus Sully]

This is pretty much the epicenter of this debate, so I would like to see something concrete to back this up. The bird argument leaves too many variables open to establish causality between slow twitch and speed.



Is there any scientific evidence to suggest that training in the particular manner you describe (low weight 20+ reps focused on speed) actually increases your speed.

i dont know if this necessiarly answers your questions, but here are some quotes from ross training and a video about how muscles work:

Speed Strength - Speed strength is defined as the ability to quickly execute an unloaded movement or a movement against a relatively small external resistance. For example, working with a punch-out drill against the heavy bag would equate to the execution of a relatively small external resistance, as the weight of the glove is insignificant.


Speed strength is also very important for fighters. Unfortunately, many athletes train improperly, hence sacrifice this strength quality. For example, world-renowned sport scientist Yuri Verkhoshansky and colleagues established that:

"Excessive maximum strength training can impair speed-strength and technical skill in boxers." (2)

2.) Verkhoshansky, Y.V. (1986) Fundamentals of Special Strength-Training in Sport. Sportivny Press, Livonia, MI. (Original work published in 1977, Moscow, Russia: Fizkultura i Spovt).
"

http://www.rosstraining.com/articles...htraining.html

muscles work like this,



the more muscle fibers you can activate at once, is explosive strength

again, from ross training:

Explosive Strength - Explosive strength is defined as the ability to express significant tension in minimal time.

Vladimir Zatsiorsky, highly regarded sport biomechanist and former strength and conditioning consultant for the Soviet Union Olympic teams, has stated specifically that:

"The ability to produce maximal forces in minimal time is called explosive strength. Strong people do not necessarily possess explosive strength." (1)

Clearly, the development of one strength quality (ex. max-strength) does not guarantee the development of another (ex. explosive strength). This information may come as a surprise to many athletes who focus all of their strength work to one specific strength quality (ex. the athlete who only lifts heavy loads to development maximal strength). "

http://www.rosstraining.com/articles...htraining.html

my comment about motor neuron activation is incorrect, its rather a matter of muscle fiber activation, fast twitch muscle have an advantage of larger motor neurons signaling more fibers at once, but it still isnt about fast or slow twitch, but rather the number of fibers firing off at once.

another note, this time from wiki on motor neurons:

Alpha motor neurons are further differentiated into subclasses that demonstrate distinct physiological characteristics. Fast-twitch, fatigable (FF) motor neurons are the largest (and therefore the fastest in propagating signals) of the alpha-motor neurons; FR (fast-twitch, fatigue-resistant) neurons are of intermediate size, and slow-twitch, fatigue-resistant (S) neurons are the smallest subclass. In addition to signaling velocity, these differential sizes also form the physiological basis of the size principle. Due to their relatively small axonal diameter, S type neurons, which innervate smaller muscle fibers, require a smaller input potential to reach threshold. Conversely, FF type neurons, which innervate the largest muscle fibers, require a greater input potential to reach threshold. Therefore, the axonal diameter of the three subclasses of alpha motor neurons clearly determines the patterns of the recruitment of motor units predicted by the size principle. The specific regulatory mechanisms that determine the size of these three alpha-motor neuron subclasses are not well known.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_pool

essentially this says that fast twitch activate under heavy loads like pushing and slow twitch activate under light loads like punching.

[johnm is...]

Jesus Christ. He went to Ross boxing.

[Jim Jeffries]

which claims? there is alot of stuff im explaining.

Well here are some of my favorites from this thread

strength training is a waste of time if your goal is boxing.

a jab is not fast

forman could not punch

Idealy the heavy bag dosnt really move when you hit it

You really want full extension of the punch before impact.

You heard that right, full extension before impact.

You then go on about how slow twitch muscle fibers are better for speed because of uh, Hummingbirds.

the muscles that control their wings are almost entirely slow twitch muscles.

that includes the humming bird who on average flaps its wings at 50 times a second, but can at times flap as many as 200 times a second.

that's right 50 flaps a second for hours on end thanks to slow twitch muscles.

So there it is, irrefutable proof.

err actually im not sure on that, some sources are saying that humming birds are entirely slow twitch and some are saying they are fast twitch, ill have to look into it more.

Or maybe not.

endurance training is not speed training

Okay, but then he says this

you do light weight exercises for speed and endurance

Then there's this

Explosive strength is not a matter of fast or slow twitch, it is a matter of motor neuron activation

Or maybe not.

my comment about motor neuron activation is incorrect

[HedonisticFrog]

and just so every one is aware:

Explosive strength is not a matter of fast or slow twitch, it is a matter of motor neuron activation.

when doing heavy lifts you activate the motor neurons of both fast and slow twitch fibers, though the fast twitch fibers having larger motor neurons tear and fail first, this promotes myofibril hypertrophy of the fast twitch muscles.

when exercises are done at a fast pace under light weights you are doing the same thing, you are working motor neuron activation of both fast and slow twitch muscles, but due to the lighter weight there is less tendancy for the muscle fibers to tear and inturn you work both fast and slow twitch fibers equally for improved motor neuron activation.

also to note when you train your motor neurons to activate against a heavy load they will have problems activating when there is no load, like punching but when you train them to activate under a light load they will activate properly whether there is no load or a heavy load.

This is clearly wrong. The only thing motor neurons have to do with boxing is being coordinated enough to throw a punch with good technique. To actually develop power you need to strengthen the muscles.

Lifting with heavy weights does not reduce your ability to throw a punch with good technique. Either you know how to throw a punch or you don't, I can bench 295lb and then throw fast explosive punches just fine.

both are better options than strength training.

a boxer does not need any more strength than what they get from body weight exercises and boxing specific training.

the endurance weight training, especially when focused on leg and shoulder endurance, allows for longer periods of boxing specific training.



if you could actually look at the muscle youd see a huge difference.

actually I guess you can.

the breasts on a bird control the wings.

a flightless heavy bird is going to have fast twitch mucles in it breasts as flapping its wings is comparable to 3 sets of 5 reps at 80% 1 RM

a flying light bird is going to have slow twitch muscles in its breasts as flapping its wings is comparable to 6 sets of 40 reps at 30% 1 RM

You miss the entire point, strength training isn't meant to replace boxing drills, it's supposed to be used in addition to them. A boxer might not need the additional strength to win a fight but it definitely helps so why not take advantage of it?

The main reason there's such a big difference in those two muscles is because of genetics. You can change muscle fiber distribution somewhat but you can't go from one extreme to the other just with training. Boxing drills build up plenty of muscular endurance so again, I really don't see a point in doing little tiny weights even if you move them fast. The relative load is still far less than heavy weights and won't build strength.

You also repeatedly mention that you should only strength train once a week which is ridiculous. Even if you use the same volume over three workouts instead of once a week you will make significantly more progress with the three workouts a week. You're just shooting yourself in the leg with a high volume once a week workout since you will be more sore from it and won't even gain as much strength.

[Spartacus Sully]

Well here are some of my favorites from this thread











You heard that right, full extension before impact.

You then go on about how slow twitch muscle fibers are better for speed because of uh, Hummingbirds.



So there it is, irrefutable proof.



Or maybe not.



Okay, but then he says this



Then there's this



Or maybe not.

so i guess thats a no, you cant tell the difference between endurance and speed training.

yes they are both done with light weights compared to heavy lifting. atleast you seem to understand that much.

[Spartacus Sully]

This is clearly wrong. The only thing motor neurons have to do with boxing is being coordinated enough to throw a punch with good technique. To actually develop power you need to strengthen the muscles.

Lifting with heavy weights does not reduce your ability to throw a punch with good technique. Either you know how to throw a punch or you don't, I can bench 295lb and then throw fast explosive punches just fine.



You miss the entire point, strength training isn't meant to replace boxing drills, it's supposed to be used in addition to them. A boxer might not need the additional strength to win a fight but it definitely helps so why not take advantage of it?

The main reason there's such a big difference in those two muscles is because of genetics. You can change muscle fiber distribution somewhat but you can't go from one extreme to the other just with training. Boxing drills build up plenty of muscular endurance so again, I really don't see a point in doing little tiny weights even if you move them fast. The relative load is still far less than heavy weights and won't build strength.

You also repeatedly mention that you should only strength train once a week which is ridiculous. Even if you use the same volume over three workouts instead of once a week you will make significantly more progress with the three workouts a week. You're just shooting yourself in the leg with a high volume once a week workout since you will be more sore from it and won't even gain as much strength.

Motor neurons and boxing? no.

Motor neurons and explosive strength.

though more true is muscle fiber activation and explosive strength.


dont strength train if you think its a waste.