Joe Calzaghe: One step forward, two steps backward

[SHB]

I'd respond to all that, but it's based on the logic that Ottke was a worthy champion. Which is just silly.

PS What did Warren do to you? You sound a little bitter, whatever it was.

[Neckodeemus]

Nah, I like Warren. He went through a lot and broke the cartels that were ruining British boxing, unfortunately the nature of the beast is that you become what you once railed against.

It is nothing personal towards your good self nor Warren. It is just my take on the situation as a person who has followed boxing in the UK for a long time.

Incidently I am a big fan of a comedy show called 'Operation Good Guys', it once featured Frank as a guest and he came across as funny, witty (I do not think the show was scripted) and engaging.

Times seem to have changed since then.

[Shanus]

Before you leave the asylum you need to bear something in mind.

As much as google is a valuable resource for finding out about something nothing quite compensates for lived experience.

For example you say Frank Warren had a £1,000,000 offer turned-down? This is according to who, Frank Warren.

Now, is this the same Frank Warren who said over and over Ricky Hatton can sell out the MEN if he gets a big title fight (he could sell it with a WBU title even), arranged for Ricky to fight Harris for the WBA title, offered Harris X amount of money then cut his purse due to worries the promotion might not make a great deal of money? The same Warren who acted amateurishly in this situation and was reduced to calling Harris disgraceful names?

Is this the Warren who got Hatton into the #1 position for Tszyu's titles then announced the fight, twice, without actually getting Kostya's signature? The same Kostya whose team had to tell Warren to hold fire until they had actually signed the fight?

Is this the same Warren who, years ago, announced Audley Harrison-Matt Skelton as a PPV 'event' only for us to discover he had not signed, nor discussed terms, with Harrison?

Are we by chance talking about the same promoter who recently announced on his site that Andy Morris would be defending versus Stephen Foster last Saturday without actually signing Morris up for the fight?

Could it also be the guy who offered Hopkins, when he was red-hot, $3,000,000 to move up in weight, forget his MW title dream and come to England to fight Calzaghe? Why do you think Hopkins asked for $6,000,000? Work it out. Hopkins was well worth £3,000,000 not $$$. If we take $3,000,000 as £1.5,000,000 Warren thought P4P #1 Hopkins was only worth £500,000 than Ottke!

I think it may be the same guy.

Now, consider this. Team Calzaghe and Team Ottke sat down to discuss terms and negotiations fell apart, Team Ottke said that the demands on them (probably giving up home advantage despite being the Champion, coming to Wales, possibly facing an even purse split) were too great and withdrew. They then kept a dignified silence (unfortunately in boxing this is seen as weakness). Warren announced he had offered the £1,000,000 purse yet negotiations broke down, so how are we to know the overall purse was not to be split £1,000,000 Ottke and £1.5,000,000 Joe? Are we to assume Warren could not generate more money (£2,500,000) for a SM unification in Cardiff where it would sell massively, it would also be PPV (most likely) on Sky and would have German plus USA TV rights boosting the pot? Evidently he is not a premier promoter is he?

You do not make an offer then the other team says: "A million? Ok, we'll meet you at the end of the garden and don't forget your boxing gloves!"

No. Promotion is complex, one thing that does happen is that when negotiations break-down if one party comes out and says "we offered X" then people will jot it down and put it on the 'net. Then it will appear on google as only half the story, hence people get their "facts" wrong.

Close the door on the way out

Answer me this, why did team 'palle' firstly claim that Warren offered them 50k, only to turn around months later and say Warren hadn't offered them anything AT all?

I'm not denying what your post said, it probably is true, I could point out a hand full of promoters who do/have done the exact same thing, a verbal agreement can mean alot, but it can also be turned down just as easily.. signing just means the fight is a done deal, but even then they can pull out, so what difference would it make if it was signed or not? If it was discussed and agreed verbally, going through the final stages, then it may aswell be announced that they are fighting, even if it is cancelled at the last minute, because it prepares the fans, and is also a build up.

[Shot]

Calzaghe turned down a deal with Kessler? More like the other way around as has been reported - the only thing in dispute on that issue is the amount Warren offered.

As for the reasons why a Ottke-Calzaghe fight didn't come off, how on earth can you lay that one on JC when a) he was the one calling him out and b) Ottke turned down $1m for this fight? Google is very handy in these cases.

I'm sorry but I can't agree with anyone that views Ottke as a credible champion - he received some horrible gift decisions during his title "reign".

The offer to Ottke is ridiculous and the Calzaghe camp knows that. Ottke was making more than that even fighting a tomato can. But Ottke also clearly tried to avoid Calzaghe since no offer was ever made from that side (That i am avare of). I don't think that those camps would ever have been able to agree on a purse and more importantly a place of venue.

Warren claims he has made Kessler a good offer (1.5 mil pounds i believe). Team Palle completely denies that. I don't know which side is telling the truth but i do see Kessler calling out Calzaghe. Let's see what Kesslers price is for facing Calzaghe before one can really say Calzaghe is ducking him or if it just a publicity stunt.

[SHB]

Nah, I like Warren. He went through a lot and broke the cartels that were ruining British boxing, unfortunately the nature of the beast is that you become what you once railed against.

It is nothing personal towards your good self nor Warren. It is just my take on the situation as a person who has followed boxing in the UK for a long time.

Incidently I am a big fan of a comedy show called 'Operation Good Guys', it once featured Frank as a guest and he came across as funny, witty (I do not think the show was scripted) and engaging.

Times seem to have changed since then.

Well I think he's an odious little man myself, but there we go. I guess my take is that they're all as bad as each other so like pointing out that. Cynical maybe, but it's easy to be sometimes

As for Calzaghe, he's a home boy. Always has been, always will be. It's only now that megabucks are being waved in his face that he's going to America, and that is what it always would take for him to leave his country. That has undoubtedly held him back due to the big names (Jones, Hopkins etc) being equally reluctant to leave their countries. In his division he's the big fish though, and has been for the last decade IMO so the likes of Kessler should be the ones doing the chasing which they don't seem to be doing much of.

[SHB]

The offer to Ottke is ridiculous and the Calzaghe camp knows that. Ottke was making more than that even fighting a tomato can. But Ottke also clearly tried to avoid Calzaghe since no offer was ever made from that side (That i am avare of). I don't think that those camps would ever have been able to agree on a purse and more importantly a place of venue.

Warren claims he has made Kessler a good offer (1.5 mil pounds i believe). Team Palle completely denies that. I don't know which side is telling the truth but i do see Kessler calling out Calzaghe. Let's see what Kesslers price is for facing Calzaghe before one can really say Calzaghe is ducking him or if it just a publicity stunt.

So you agree that Ottke dodged Calzaghe? Well, that's all I was saying.

Is Kessler calling out Calzaghe? All I've heard is talk of "the right financial conditions". Obviously we hope this happens, but actions speak louder than words - and it seems Warren is having to make the calls rather than the other way around.

[Cletus Funk]

I don't know where your'e getting some of your information from but it would appear to be plucked straight from your ass. You come accross like you actually sat in on the negotiations of which you speak. Did you, or are you just theorising? Or if there's some documentary evidence, please point us to it.

I've seen an interview with Harris' promoters at the time, ridiculing Harris for turning down the offer from Warren. They confirmed the reported amount (£600k?) and made no mention of a reduction in the offer. They basically stated that Harris had an unrealistic and inflated opinion of his own worth. He instead chose to fight Urkal in Germany for 25% of what he would have made against Hatton. The guy's an idiot.

The offer to Hopkins would have been his largest to date (at the time) by some margin according to the reports I've seen. I'd hardly call that insulting.

Before you leave the asylum you need to bear something in mind.

As much as google is a valuable resource for finding out about something nothing quite compensates for lived experience.

For example you say Frank Warren had a £1,000,000 offer turned-down? This is according to who, Frank Warren.

Now, is this the same Frank Warren who said over and over Ricky Hatton can sell out the MEN if he gets a big title fight (he could sell it with a WBU title even), arranged for Ricky to fight Harris for the WBA title, offered Harris X amount of money then cut his purse due to worries the promotion might not make a great deal of money? The same Warren who acted amateurishly in this situation and was reduced to calling Harris disgraceful names?

Is this the Warren who got Hatton into the #1 position for Tszyu's titles then announced the fight, twice, without actually getting Kostya's signature? The same Kostya whose team had to tell Warren to hold fire until they had actually signed the fight?

Is this the same Warren who, years ago, announced Audley Harrison-Matt Skelton as a PPV 'event' only for us to discover he had not signed, nor discussed terms, with Harrison?

Are we by chance talking about the same promoter who recently announced on his site that Andy Morris would be defending versus Stephen Foster last Saturday without actually signing Morris up for the fight?

Could it also be the guy who offered Hopkins, when he was red-hot, $3,000,000 to move up in weight, forget his MW title dream and come to England to fight Calzaghe? Why do you think Hopkins asked for $6,000,000? Work it out. Hopkins was well worth £3,000,000 not $$$. If we take $3,000,000 as £1.5,000,000 Warren thought P4P #1 Hopkins was only worth £500,000 than Ottke!

I think it may be the same guy.

Now, consider this. Team Calzaghe and Team Ottke sat down to discuss terms and negotiations fell apart, Team Ottke said that the demands on them (probably giving up home advantage despite being the Champion, coming to Wales, possibly facing an even purse split) were too great and withdrew. They then kept a dignified silence (unfortunately in boxing this is seen as weakness). Warren announced he had offered the £1,000,000 purse yet negotiations broke down, so how are we to know the overall purse was not to be split £1,000,000 Ottke and £1.5,000,000 Joe? Are we to assume Warren could not generate more money (£2,500,000) for a SM unification in Cardiff where it would sell massively, it would also be PPV (most likely) on Sky and would have German plus USA TV rights boosting the pot? Evidently he is not a premier promoter is he?

You do not make an offer then the other team says: "A million? Ok, we'll meet you at the end of the garden and don't forget your boxing gloves!"

No. Promotion is complex, one thing that does happen is that when negotiations break-down if one party comes out and says "we offered X" then people will jot it down and put it on the 'net. Then it will appear on google as only half the story, hence people get their "facts" wrong.

Close the door on the way out

[Welter_Skelter]

I think Alot of Kessler Supporters are just as guilty as Calzaghe supporters when it comes to BLOWING their wins out of PROPORTION.. At least the JC fans have an argument tht before the Lacy fight 99% of everyone was picking the "Mini Tyson" to blow JC away in 3-4 rounds .. Remember NO ONE was calling Lacy a bum before hand.. Beyer on the Other hand would have in my humble opinion been KOd by Lacy within 5 rounds.. KOed By Calzaghe within 5 rounds and would never had been champ if he didn't recieve as MANY gifts as Sven Ottke.. Seriously I have seen about 10 Beyer fights (have you watched Eurosport in the last 5 years?) and The guys SKILLS were average at the best of times.. His Power average and his CHIN average.. Kessler MAY indeed be the next BIG thing... but basing it on beating Beyer is really just shooting yourself in the foot when comparing him to Joe Calzaghe

[dumdane]

So you agree that Ottke dodged Calzaghe? Well, that's all I was saying.

Is Kessler calling out Calzaghe? All I've heard is talk of "the right financial conditions". Obviously we hope this happens, but actions speak louder than words - and it seems Warren is having to make the calls rather than the other way around.

Yes Kessler is calling out Calzaghe. He's shown up to the Calzaghe-Lacy fight and done it before and after the fight. He shouted it out loud minutes after KO'ing Beyer. He does it in every interview he makes, that in any way touches on his plans for the future. (i know your UK media don't pribt all of them) Add to that a number of direct - behind the curtains approaches. But of course the addition "if money is right" or "if terms can be agreed on" is everpresent.
Can you imagine Calzaghe calling out Hopkins, with the understanding that whatever amount Hopkins would be willing to offer Calzaghe would be fine?

And frankly i do think it's about time Warren was the one to make a call. His done it two times at most, and once was pretty clearly only in his imagination.
Add to that this is the last call for Calzaghe. He has no future ahead of him in the boxing-ring. His stocks are going down fast from the high following the Lacy fight. He and Warren needs to come off their high horses. If they don't they'll soon fall off.

[SHB]

You speak as if Calzaghe should be grateful for the Kessler fight and that he has no other options. I don't see Kessler being talked about in the money fights that are being discussed over in the US. Which is probably why they've been rather bullish in the press over past discussions as they can see their big payday disappearing over the Atlantic.

Why doesn't Kessler's team make a very public offer to get this to happen rather than wait for whatever is offered them? You're asking the established champion to make all the running, which is rather odd given that he has been criticised for not doing enough chasing in the past. Also, whatever happened to those rumours of Team-Palle's financial difficulties?