Bert Sugar's Top 100 Fighters Of All Time...

[edgarg]

Carlos Monzon is stunningly low. He beat Griffith once, Benvenutti twice and was the middleweight champ for a decade. I have seen him in the top ten on many lists. Bert usually has a good reason for this stuff, I would be curious to see what he writes.

He write as if sugar was sitting around the corner. The man had been dead for at least 10 or more years. And he wasn't around for years before that, as he had bad lung cancer poor guy. So he must have actually smoked those cigars at some time. I never saw one lighted .

[edgarg]

Bert Sugar list included people who never won a title or even fought for a title. Guys like Burley, Jeanette, Gibbons, Peter Jackson made the list. Flash Elorde held the title for seven years but Kilbane held title for 11 years and barely made the cut. Saddler lost to Elorde on tailend of his career.

agree on every name. Peter Kand and Benny Lynch should be on the list. Alrady from the so many not on the list hso should be, there can be another list made.of equally good fighters.

[edgarg]

No MAB or Morales?

I didnt see their names on the list, but I only scanned...

Macho Camacho should be onthe list.

[edgarg]

I'm only going to make notations next to the ones I have strong feelings on. I may disagree slightly with a few; but he's Bert Sugar, after all and old enough to be my dad, so he get's brownie points for being older and, conversely, probably more knowledgeable...well, obviously more knowledgeable. I'm assuming this is a "P4P" list, btw; but will also consider this a "technique" list as well.

1) Ray Robinson
2) Hank Armstrong
3) Willie Pep
4) Joe Louis
5) Harry Greb
6) Benny Leonard
7) Muhammad Ali
8) Roberto Duran too low...by just a bit
9) Jack Dempsey probably too high
10) Jack Johnson
11) Mickey Walker
12) Tony Canzoneri
13) Gene Tunney too high, considering the rest of the list
14) Rocky Marciano
15) Joe Gans
16) Sam Langford probably a bit too low
17) Julio Cesar Chavez
18) Jimmy Wilde too low, me thinks
19) Stanley Ketchel
20) Barney Ross
21) Jimmy McClarnin
22) Archie Moore
23) Marcel Cerdan
24) Ezzard Charles should be higher
25) Ray Leonard
26) The Original Joe Walcott
27) Jake Lamotta
28) Eder Jofre probably too low
29) Emile Griffith
30) Terry McGivern
31) George Foreman way too high
32) Johnny Dundee
33) Jose Napoles too low
34) Pascual Perez
35) Billy Conn probably a bit too low
36) Ruben Olivares
37) Joe Frazier
38) Tommy Loughran
39) Sandy Saddler too low, IMO
40) Kid Chocolate
41) Abe Attell
42) Evander Holyfield considering he was a two division titlist, too low.
43) George Dixon
44) Maxie Rosenbloom
45) Larry Holmes Too low
46) Ted 'Kid' Lewis
47) Marvin Hagler too low
48) Pernell Whitaker way too low
49) Carlos Zarate too low
50) Thomas Hearns
51) Battling Nelson
52) Beau Jack
53) Ricardo Lopez
54) John L Sullivan
55) Carlos Monzon Waaayy too low
56) Alexis Arguello
57) Carmen Basilio
58) Pete Herman
59) Charley Burley never saw him; but from what I've read...too low
60) Ike Williams
61) Kid Gavilan
62) Jack Britton
63) **** Tiger
64) Pancho Villa
65) Panama Al Brown
66) Bob Fitzsimmons too Low...waaay too low
67) Philadelphia Jack O'Brien
68) Tiger Flowers
69) James J Corbett father of modern boxing...too low
70) Tony Zale
71) Tommy Ryan
72) Georges Carpentier
73) Sonny Liston
74) Kid McCoy
75) Bob Foster
76) Freddie Welsh
77) Joe Jeanette
78) Jim Driscoll
79) Jersey Joe Walcott
80) Peter Jackson
81) Ad Wolgast
82) Jack Dempsey nonpareil too low
83) Manuel Ortiz
84) Jim Jeffries
85) Salvador Sanchez
86) Jimmy Barry
87) Carlos Ortiz
88) Roy Jones jr. too low; but understandable....Jones's competition didn't help him
89) Wilfredo Gomez
90) Aaron Pryor too low me thinks
91) Bernard Hopkins
92) Mike Gibbons
93) Jack Delaney
94) Johnny Kilbane
95) Willie Ritchie
96) Wilfred Benitez
97) Packy MacFarland
98) Rocky Graziano
99) Lew Jenkins
100) Mike Tyson

too low[/QUOTE]

You make some good corrections, but far too manywho are ommitted should be on the list. ADd.

I yoy thinkabout it, andrread a little about it, The REAL father of ModernBozing was Daniel,Mendoza. His successors reverted back to their old stiff brawling style.-Until Corbett.

[djtmal]

BHOF is divided into eras for a reason.
It's almost a different sport from way back when.

Its the same sport. The advent of the weirdo nutthugger hadn't been invented until you came along

[VG_Addict]

No surprise all the Floyd Boys are discrediting him because Floyd is nowhere to be found on his list

You know this list is 16 years old, right? Judah was Floyd's most recent win at the time this list was made.

And your hero Pacquiao isn't on the list either.

[hugh grant]

You know this list is 16 years old, right? Judah was Floyd's most recent win at the time this list was made.

And your hero Pacquiao isn't on the list either.

Be rt was never going to have floyd above pac in any rankings

[djtmal]

You know this list is 16 years old, right? Judah was Floyd's most recent win at the time this list was made.

And your hero Pacquiao isn't on the list either.

If he has Srl at #25, and Srl has all time great fighters in their prime on his resume I can't see Floyd cracking top 50 with that cherrypicked resume of his

[QueensburyRules]

And a very smelly, battered old hat, to show his eccentricity. His signatures. Just a gimmick. And I don't think a very good historian.He was around for many years before enyone ever heard of him, and then only when the really top guys died off.

- - Bald as an eggplant but good vaudeville hat and cigar act for the networks to trot out when they needed a boxing expert.

Funny story about some girl who accidently knocked his hat off at a party. Bert went off like the 4th of July condensed into 30 secs of time.

[edgarg]

let me elaborate a bit more for the sake of this discussion. and, btw, i don't necessarily believe in number rankings much.

jack johnson should be ranked higher - much higher.

harry greb, known as the dirtiest fighter ever, how the hell can he be ranked so high.

jack dempsey should be a bit higher ranked as well.

joe walcott - shoulde be ranked higher.
marvin hagler - should be ranked higher.
thomas hearns - should be ranked higher.
stanley ketchel - should be ranked lower.
no kostya tszyu?!?

i certainly could go on....

You are the very first member whom have seen, actually joined before I did. A whole year. You must be almost a founder member. So you're a long time observer, and not surprisingly sopme of your comment is similar to mine, Johnson and Ketchell for instance.
I often wonder at Nat Fleischer's list, BUT, as he says, he saw every championship heavyweight fight, amongst many other title fights, from Jefferies to Ali, and he didn't really rate Ali. It was he who said that he does many tings wrong, and when he slows down, will be badly punished. Well I have some reservations about a few on his list, not that they are on it, but their ranking, but none about Johnson.

We know that he was right about Ali, poor guy who came to a very bad end.

Sugar's list is OK but a lot wring with it. It's an impossible task anyway, But any list that has Rocky Marciano on it, except at the very end, is suspect, to me anyway.