The case for floyd higher on ATG list than Duran

[chrisJS]

I think I won the argument with this post!!! Good discussion though. Whenever you have the answer I’ll be waiting

He probably doesn’t I’ll agree with that but there’s plenty Durán has done that Mayweather wouldn’t like run Hagler close or beat Leonard or win the Middleweight title vs. a career Middleweight aged 37/38. Different eras. Duran did pick and chose his fights more in his 30s. Dude had around 80 fights by the time he fought Leonard.

[THEFRESHBRAWLER]

He probably doesn’t I’ll agree with that but there’s plenty Durán has done that Mayweather wouldn’t like run Hagler close or beat Leonard or win the Middleweight title vs. a career Middleweight aged 37/38. Different eras. Duran did pick and chose his fights more in his 30s. Dude had around 80 fights by the time he fought Leonard.

I ain’t gone lie you kept me on my toes lol you got some knowledge I won’t take that away from you. Hopefully no hard feelings because you know we can’t all like the same fighters.
Boxing would be boring if we did. Peace and respect my friend

[chrisJS]

I ain’t gone lie you kept me on my toes lol you got some knowledge I won’t take that away from you. Hopefully no hard feelings because you know we can’t all like the same fighters.
Boxing would be boring if we did. Peace and respect my friend

Truth be told I’ve never really been a Duran fan either. He was often totally classless but I respect him as a fighter greatly. I just prefer the gentleman of the sport but also realize you need the “bad guys”.

Nah none from me at all. If someone can try to debate intelligently and respectfully I’ll usually entertain it if not they go on my ignore list.

[TonyGe]

Truth be told I’ve never really been a Duran fan either. He was often totally classless but I respect him as a fighter greatly. I just prefer the gentleman of the sport but also realize you need the “bad guys”.

Nah none from me at all. If someone can try to debate intelligently and respectfully I’ll usually entertain it if not they go on my ignore list.

Yeah he could be obscene and dirty in the ring when he wanted to be. He also gave away a lot of his money to the poor. When Esteban DeJesus lay dying of AIDS he went to see him and embraced him. Duran was a complicated guy. The one thing about him was he was always real. Love him or hate him he didn't care he lived life on his terms. When the Duran Leonard rivalry was at it's peak its fair to say Duran hated Leonard. Now they are friends it's not fake or for the cameras. He's an amazing guy.

[!! Shawn]

boxrec used a point system last time i checked. it's a terrible list.


roberto duran is one of the 10 best boxers of all time. floyd definitely is not. he was a terrific fighter, but duran fought for decades, had more than twice as many fights, and has flat out better wins. main difference is that you don't recognize the name of contenders from the 70's or 80s, and you do recognize the names floyd fought.

a 7 year lightweight champion beating ray leonard in his prime is probably the best win in boxing history.

I agree Durans win over Leonard is probably the best win in boxing history.

And realistically, making the Hagler fight as competitive as he did over 15 rounds is a bigger notch in his belt than any win Floyd has.

Just think about that. Duran has losses that are more impressive than Floyds best wins.

Floyd had a strategy that worked out very well for him. If there was a credible threat to his zero, he would retire, wait for the guy to lose, then fight him.

When ever a division got hot, Floyd bounced. It is what it is. It doesn't take away from his skills, because his skill set is great, and he could have been competitive in any era. Its just how his career was managed. Safety over legacy.

Im not saying that makes him a worse fighter, but we never saw him try and prove that he was the best, and when we are talking about topics like this, its hard to make a case for him over someone that we did see take on the biggest threats that were out there, and wanted to.

[!! Shawn]

I think we will see a lot more fighters retire undefeated now which will dilute the accomplishment somewhat. Whilst I think Floyd is great he simply wouldn't have been able to navigate and manipulate his career in other era's. It's possible if Floyd had the same kind of mentality he would struggle to get a title shot due to being very selective and not beating enough ranked guys. Not saying that would happen but it's entirely possible given what we know about Floyd. Now, he may have acted differently in past generations. We don't know. Then if he got the title shot it would be vs. prime great guys which is something we never saw him face. Maybe he doesn't handle the adversity? Entirely possible. We don't have these question marks against most all-time greats.

I'll use a Cuban fighter from the 1960's for example. Luis Rodriguez. Look at how often he fought, who he fought and when he fought them. He was a great, great fighter yet held a title for three months only (got robbed vs. Griffith twice). He fought around 50-60 fights where the opponent was high quality and every single style and more often than not it was in their backyard and very often outweighed in middleweight fights. A whole lot of prime guys and guys that would have been champions for certain in this 5/5 belt per division era where titles are stripped and dropped with ease.

If Rodriguez had turned pro in 1996 and only had to fight 50 fights and not in the opponents backyard so often I think for certain he'd have been 50-0 but also would have beaten some greats/near greats in their prime like Trinidad, De La Hoya, Mosley, Mayweather, Pacquaio and to be honest even Hopkins and probably Golovkin.

Different era's and you've got to measure guys relative to their era when assessing all-time greatness. Too many noobs just look at the W-L column but then if you think Floyd is ahead of Duran you have to have Calzaghe over Jones or Marciano over Ali for example.

To further your point. Guys that Rodriguez beat like George Benton, Id give a good chance to go through Floyds resume undefeated. He even fought a very similar style to Floyd.

There seems to a notion among a lot of casual fans that Floyd is stylistically unique in boxing history. Many of these guys we are talking about have wins over fighters who are stylistically clones of mayweather, and who were great fighters themselves.

[chrisJS]

To further your point. Guys that Rodriguez beat like George Benton, Id give a good chance to go through Floyds resume undefeated. He even fought a very similar style to Floyd.

There seems to a notion among a lot of casual fans that Floyd is stylistically unique in boxing history. Many of these guys we are talking about have wins over fighters who are stylistically clones of mayweather, and who were great fighters themselves.

Good call. Benton was a superb fighter. Matter of fact I’m watching his fight with Carter right now as I see your post lol.

I’ve never been able to find the Rodriguez-Benton fight nfortunately. I bet the skill is beautiful to watch. Unfortunately it appears they haven’t surfaced anywhere.

[!! Shawn]

Great post. Great points.

From a skill standpoint, I don’t think it’s even a question that Floyd is great. His accomplishments and the men he faced are also laudable. But we agree, it’s all been manipulated to a degree that simply wasn’t possible in years gone by. Mayweather would’ve certainly taken a few losses had he fought in the fifties, for example. No question there either.

Rodriguez was a great fighter. A real pleasure to watch. Excellent example. The fact that “El Feo” held a title for so brief a time is testament to the era he fought in. As you pointed out, he probably would’ve done much better today. It’s just a different game. Men don’t take to the sport the way they used to. That’s another thing. The pool has shrunk tremendously, at least in the United States.

Definitely, there are less active fighters, which reasonable would lead you to assume the talent pool isnt as deep. It really isn't.

Floyd definitely has the skills from the eye test to be competitive. But what would have happen had Mosley hit him with the shots that almost put him down had it been a fresher mosley? What would have happened had it been 6 ounce horse hair gloves like they use to fight in? Would floyd have won that fight?

The point im trying to make, is we only saw him have to overcome very limited adversity. He never really had to dig deep, he never fought the big names on his resume when they really could have been dangerous. There are too many what ifs.

Even when comparing to someone like Roy Jones, who is noted for not having the most stellar resume in boxing, but for his sublime skills.

He still fought James Toney in his prime. You can say well James Toney had trouble making weight. But that is not something Jones could control. He took the fight against one of the baddest men on the planet in his prime, and made it look easy.

I don't put as much stock in having a long impressive resume. But I need to see a guy in against a prime monster to see if his skills can transfer to that level.

I'd assume Floyds would, but you never know.

Its fights like SRLs fight against Hearns, where he had to change course mid fight to start stalking Hearns as he was getting outboxed, and out punched... that proved his greatness and versatility.

Have we ever seen Floyd in a fight that required more than the most basic of adjustments? The Judah fight maybe. Outside of that? Not really, and I have a theory why.

He fought cookie cutter fighters that were all stylistically fairly the same. They came to him, and let him counter. He never fought anyone that still had legs outside of judah. Never fought anyone that was a mover, never fought any pure boxers, and the level they were at when he fought them, is largely reflected in what they did after fighting him. Usually it amounts to either retiring, or nothing.

If your best win is a guy who goes on to have a middling career after fighting you, it probably wasn't such a great win, or even a great fight.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Definitely, there are less active fighters, which reasonable would lead you to assume the talent pool isnt as deep. It really isn't.

Floyd definitely has the skills from the eye test to be competitive. But what would have happen had Mosley hit him with the shots that almost put him down had it been a fresher mosley? What would have happened had it been 6 ounce horse hair gloves like they use to fight in? Would floyd have won that fight?

The point im trying to make, is we only saw him have to overcome very limited adversity. He never really had to dig deep, he never fought the big names on his resume when they really could have been dangerous. There are too many what ifs.

Even when comparing to someone like Roy Jones, who is noted for not having the most stellar resume in boxing, but for his sublime skills.

He still fought James Toney in his prime. You can say well James Toney had trouble making weight. But that is not something Jones could control. He took the fight against one of the baddest men on the planet in his prime, and made it look easy.

I don't put as much stock in having a long impressive resume. But I need to see a guy in against a prime monster to see if his skills can transfer to that level.

I'd assume Floyds would, but you never know.

Its fights like SRLs fight against Hearns, where he had to change course mid fight to start stalking Hearns as he was getting outboxed, and out punched... that proved his greatness and versatility.

Have we ever seen Floyd in a fight that required more than the most basic of adjustments? The Judah fight maybe. Outside of that? Not really, and I have a theory why.

He fought cookie cutter fighters that were all stylistically fairly the same. They came to him, and let him counter. He never fought anyone that still had legs outside of judah. Never fought anyone that was a mover, never fought any pure boxers, and the level they were at when he fought them, is largely reflected in what they did after fighting him. Usually it amounts to either retiring, or nothing.

If your best win is a guy who goes on to have a middling career after fighting you, it probably wasn't such a great win, or even a great fight.

Floyd’s minions would have us believe he was so far above everyone he fought that he only made it look easy. Lol In a lot of people’s opinion, including my own, Mayweather had significant help from careful matchmaking and match timing. As you point out, a prime Mosley would’ve been a different animal. And what about a prime Manny? Jesus... Again, I don’t want to take too much away from the guy — Floyd really is great — just not as great as the image he cultivated and his fans lapped up.

SRL was an awesome fighter at his peak. Not only would he have beat Mayweather, but so would Hearns. I’d go as far as saying both men beat Floyd 10/10 times. Duran I’m not as sure about, although I give him the edge over PBF. Might sound funny, as Roberto beat Leonard once and gave the natural middleweight legend Hagler all he could handle for fifteen rounds, but I think the styles help Mayweather in the match-up. Whatever the case, I think we agree Duran clearly belongs higher on the ATG list than Floyd.

[CubanGuyNYC]

Yeah he could be obscene and dirty in the ring when he wanted to be. He also gave away a lot of his money to the poor. When Esteban DeJesus lay dying of AIDS he went to see him and embraced him. Duran was a complicated guy. The one thing about him was he was always real. Love him or hate him he didn't care he lived life on his terms. When the Duran Leonard rivalry was at it's peak its fair to say Duran hated Leonard. Now they are friends it's not fake or for the cameras. He's an amazing guy.

Duran has a heart of gold, man. Yes, he was a dirty fighter, and he had a nasty boxing persona, but that was his natural ferocity that took over when he was “in character.” Outside boxing circles is where you see the person that lies just beneath the facade — a real, caring individual.