The Heavyweight Division Hierarchy Got Clearer Yesterday...

[Guest]

So what you're saying is UK could've claimed Ortiz when he was a Hearn fighter?

What about big baby?

Ortiz lives in Miami and will most likely become a citizen. It's not like he's going to keep claiming Cuba forever.

If Ortiz lived in the UK, they could claim him too!

[rolshans]

Nah. AJ, Wilder and Povetkin round out the top 3. Ortiz is probably #4 though.

[Szef]

Ortiz lives in Miami and will most likely become a citizen. It's not like he's going to keep claiming Cuba forever.

If Ortiz lived in the UK, they could claim him too!

I know that he lives there, but he's a product of the Cuban school. Fought in amateurs for Cuba. His trainer is Cuban.

That's the difference beetwen him and guys like Wilder and Miller who have trained and learned boxing in USA.

Thinking OP's way Kovalev, GGG, Loma and dozens of other non-American could all be claimed by the US which is laughable.

[True That]

...and while Britain has plenty to be proud of, there is good reason to believe the best heavys are in the US.

The 3 fights we saw make an excellent case for this.

Chisora sparked out Takam. That's both a plus and a minus for British boxing. It's great for DelBoy, who you have to root for no matter who you are (the guy is just a throwback, a classic example of a guy making a whole lot out of a little). But Takam had a controversial stoppage vs AJ and took Joseph Parker 12 rounds. What DelBoy did reflects badly on both AJ and Parker. How good are they if a washed Chisora can spark out a guy they couldn't? Yes, styles make fights and you can't make any conclusive assertions either way but it is definitely fodder for discussion.

We saw Dillian Whyte beat Joseph Parker. Dillian gets a plus for beating Parker, but maybe Parker just isn't as good as some folks rated him. A few close fights with Ruiz and Takam, 2 boring fights with Hughie Fury and Cojanu...maybe Parker was more fortunate than good. And BTW, Parker has an extra minute in that last round and perhaps we are talking about a different winner. Whyte gets credit as a plus, but the minus is Parker may not be anything more than a former beltholder who did not deserve all of his ranking.

The fight with Luis Ortiz and Razvan Cojanu throws even more fat on the fire. It's very hard to keep making the case that Ortiz is not the 3rd best heavyweight in the world when he does things like he did last night. Sparking out a guy in 2 rounds that went 12 with Parker is a statement no matter what you want to say about Luis. It puts the lie to any sentiments about his age as well. Ortiz is clearly the most skilled guy in the division and remains in good enough shape to not only compete but be counted as among the best.

I think it is clear that 2 of the top 3 guys (Wilder and Ortiz) fight in the US. And, with the addition of Jarrell Miller, it is probably 3 out of the top 5 or 6. British heavyweight boxing is indeed at an all-time high, especially if you throw in Bellew and Tyson Fury. But, the US can still make a very legit claim to having the best in the division.

Don't get too excited about Ortiz win against Cojanu, Cojanu got knocked out by Donovan Dennis in 2 rounds also.

Lol, Ortiz is not American.

Wilder, Miller, Breazeale, Washington, those guys are American.

[Kezzer]

Well I get where you are going and respect this take even if I do not necessarily agree.

Ortiz just KTFO of a guy Parker fought and went 12 with.

If he wasn't a bum when Joseph fought him, why is he one now?

Wilder and AJ have a some common opponents. And more importantly, plenty of the guys each has fought have fought each other.

In other words, they are basically competing in the same talent pool, so to denigrate the resume of one is almost certainly a bad mark against the other.

You wanna say AJ has accomplished more in less time, you can make that argument and I will listen respectfully.

But, I would counter by saying AJ has been more fortunate, has been very carefully matched and managed very well, and has been the lesser of two evils (and more lucrative) in the eyes of those who had to choose between fighting him or Deontay.

And we would both have a point.

Ok let me clarify my view here although some of these I never even brought up so you have made assumptions.

Firstly Ortiz opponent, do I think he suddenly turned a bum overnight? Well no, Parker best him when he was not any good either is the simple answer. I posted a thread on here where someone suggested a 7/8 round ko would cement his place in top3 thatany win wouldn’t be enough - and that I fully expected within 3 rounds a victory - that proved to be the case.

In terms of AJ, I was bringing him into it at all but unquestionably his resume is stronger and unquestionably he has rose quicker. Is that luck? Well no, because Hearn/Joshua and latterly McCracken have selected his opponents really sensibly.

Butt if you took boxrec for example on current fighters , which obviously excludes klitschko and has worsened as a result of last nights results , Joshua has:

Beaten 1 (Whyte) of top 5 and scheduled to fight another (povetkin).
He also has beaten breazeale and Parker who are top15.

What this does mean is he has many other options near top of the rankings now.

Deontay in comparison, who has been around much longer and champion longer has chosen not to take the same sort of fights on so has only fought Ortiz (#8) in top ten.

Now boxrec now does appear odd , for each example bellew in 4th and Parker even despite the loss probably shouldn’t be as low as 13th but it still a reasonable benchmark.

Wilder for me, if he isn’t going to take Joshua or Whyte need some to take at least one of those top ten. Breazeale and kownacki aren’t ideal as both would be considered lower level but probably as good as he can go for now. I personally would prefer him to take the Whyte fight on!

[koolkc107]

Ok let me clarify my view here although some of these I never even brought up so you have made assumptions.

Firstly Ortiz opponent, do I think he suddenly turned a bum overnight? Well no, Parker best him when he was not any good either is the simple answer. I posted a thread on here where someone suggested a 7/8 round ko would cement his place in top3 thatany win wouldn’t be enough - and that I fully expected within 3 rounds a victory - that proved to be the case.

In terms of AJ, I was bringing him into it at all but unquestionably his resume is stronger and unquestionably he has rose quicker. Is that luck? Well no, because Hearn/Joshua and latterly McCracken have selected his opponents really sensibly.

Butt if you took boxrec for example on current fighters , which obviously excludes klitschko and has worsened as a result of last nights results , Joshua has:

Beaten 1 (Whyte) of top 5 and scheduled to fight another (povetkin).
He also has beaten breazeale and Parker who are top15.

What this does mean is he has many other options near top of the rankings now.

Deontay in comparison, who has been around much longer and champion longer has chosen not to take the same sort of fights on so has only fought Ortiz (#8) in top ten.

Now boxrec now does appear odd , for each example bellew in 4th and Parker even despite the loss probably shouldn’t be as low as 13th but it still a reasonable benchmark.

Wilder for me, if he isn’t going to take Joshua or Whyte need some to take at least one of those top ten. Breazeale and kownacki aren’t ideal as both would be considered lower level but probably as good as he can go for now. I personally would prefer him to take the Whyte fight on!

Boxrec's rankings I take with a grain of salt at best.

I think AJ has one "elite" win on his entire resume and that is a faded Wlad. Wilder's elite win is a better one and Ortiz is still working with live ammo to this day.

I get folks wanting to make the argument that AJ's resume is better but I prefer the carefully matched argument and I acknowlege that early on, Wilder was also carefully matched.

But the last few years, Wilder has tried to fight as good or better competition as Wilder. It just hasn't worked out, mostly due to 3 of his opponents flunking drug tests. One of those fighters is AJ's next opponent so this should be interesting.

I think Wilder does fight Breazeale or Kownacki by year's end, unless he can get a bigger name into the ring. And I don't think Wilder will take Hearn's bait for Chisora anymore than he did for Whyte. The next and only Matchroom fighter Wilder wants is AJ.

If I was Finkel and Haymon tho, I would takes some of the 50M war-chest I had for AJ and dangle part of it in front of Fury for a December date in Vegas...