Is it fair to say that both Joshua and Wilder are rare talents.

[juggernaut666]

I just really got back and just saw this lol!

The reason the distinction is important is because it will demonstrate weakness and relative strengths of a fighter. As you go up the ladder if you can only do one thing, others can avoid it better...they are up the ladder for a reason and it is not being in front of a punch that they can see coming.

Nobody would question that a fighter who can throw more punches, fight at more ranges, has more experience has an advantage right? Those are all quantifiable attributes that make someone talented. Lets not confuse the issue either: Joshua is not necessarily deceptive, but that does not mean that watching him one cannot show a variety of things he does to show skills gained.

When we look at Joshua he has been developing in a different category than Wilder because he has been working at that level developing weapons... He has talent which he has developed from attributes he came to the game with.

Wilder is just getting to a stage where he can throw combinations and set up his punch from a jab. I don't blame Wilder either, the fact is instead of learning how to box he has to develop his punch and live and die in the ring by his punch. He came in late, does not really think like a boxer... If one were to say he has talent one would say he has a talent! He can punch hard...and as Jugs said, big men that punch hard do not necessarily make one say "oh how talented!" Correctly what we would say is that "my fighter has an attribute that we need to capitalize on." Call it a talent if you must...its still singular and something that Wilder came to the game with.

So...what is his ability? From a boxing perspective he has arrived to a place where he can make it so, that in a 12 round fight, with 3 minute rounds, he will get a certain amount or chances to unload his punch. He showed that against a talented fighter, on the decline, he could outlast and ultimately prevailed.

Does that take a great amount of talent? well it is not a real departure from where he started from...again I don't blame him either. I would do the same. He is a man with a hammer and you best be a nail! So far he is strong enough that he has prevailed, it was close and Ortiz gassed, but Wilder did show that he can use his attributes in that fight. What will Wilder do when a fighter is able to better avoid his big punch? What will Wilder do against a fighter who fights him inside? Ortiz, who was a great victory for Wilder, does not have the ability to make adjustments in the ring... Wilder will be fighting guys who will be able to make adjustments in the ring as he moves up the ladder.

Joshua is, a much more complete, fighter who also happens to be a big strong guy who can punch. this is the distinction some are making on the thread. If we watched both Wilder and Joshua and listed things they did during a fight, the list would look very different.

Thats the difference. We hear of guys like Shavers and Lyle...heavyweights that we would not call talented. These men could punch hard and could eventually count on finding a way to catch you a certain amount of times with that punch. That is Deontey's pedigree...

" He ( Wilder ) has talent which he has developed from attributes he came to the game with. "

The great breakdown you posted will be lost with this group ....lol

The above quote is the point which cant be disputed !

[KingHippo]

" He ( Wilder ) has talent which he has developed from attributes he came to the game with. "

The great breakdown you posted will be lost with this group ....lol

The above quote is the point which cant be disputed !

I think this could've been easily summarized.

To me, natural attributes and talent are both one the same. Skill is something you acquire. In this case, Joshua is definitely skilled, but not exceptionally talented.

Wilder, on the other hand is exceptionally gifted. Great reflexes, exceptional stamina and exceptional power. So I would say that Wilder is an exceptional talent in many ways, but not Joshua.

[juggernaut666]

I think this could've been easily summarized.

To me, natural attributes and talent are both one the same. Skill is something you acquire. In this case, Joshua is definitely skilled, but not exceptionally talented.

Wilder, on the other hand is exceptionally gifted. Great reflexes, exceptional stamina and exceptional power. So I would say that Wilder is an exceptional talent in many ways, but not Joshua.

Wilder came from a basketball background ,he is NOT a natural boxer like Joshua has developed into......

Regardless of that being TALL isnt a talent .....


You are a Wilder fanclub member so theres nothing to add here bc no LOGICAL discussion will come out of it !

The things you stated are of Wilder attributes they are not talents in themselves !

[KingHippo]

Wilder came from a basketball background ,he is NOT a natural boxer like Joshua has developed into......

Regardless of that being TALL isnt a talent .....


You are a Wilder fanclub member so theres nothing to add here bc no LOGICAL discussion will come out of it !

The things you stated are of Wilder attributes they are not talents in themselves !

tal·ent
ˈtalənt/Submit
noun
1.
natural aptitude or skill.

Never talked about height and the fact that he only just started boxing and is able to dominate the heavy weight division and win at an international level is a testament to his natural abilities - talents.

Check mate.

[billeau2]

I think this could've been easily summarized.

To me, natural attributes and talent are both one the same. Skill is something you acquire. In this case, Joshua is definitely skilled, but not exceptionally talented.

Wilder, on the other hand is exceptionally gifted. Great reflexes, exceptional stamina and exceptional power. So I would say that Wilder is an exceptional talent in many ways, but not Joshua.

Lets look at it from another perspective, with no semantics and in another sport:

Kenny Stabler was a great QB, he was smart, tough and mean!! Now take the average kid that has made it as a QB and compare him to Stabler: There is no comparison. Today Stabler would never make the NFL...Kids today have to be much smarter, athleticaly able, and as competitive... But Stabler will always be meaner! The things that a kid playing Qb can do today are much more varied than what Stabler could do at his best.

Now, you want to call that talent versus potential? call it anything because it does not matter what it is called. When a boxing coach looks at a fighter and takes inventory he looks at what the fighter can do. That coach will make a distinction between these abilities and what physical qualities the fighter comes with.

Marciano was a great example of this thinking. He came to boxing relatively late by the standards of his day (not by today's standards) he had absolutely no physical attributes that he could use. Goldman was a genius and saw a way to develop different attributes...But in the final analysis if one looks at tape of Marciano, we could list things he learned to do because I guess he had the talent to learn to do those things his way.

Now, we have a bunch of young fighters climbing up the ranks. Many people do not see talent when it is right in front of them and I suspect Jugs might be responding to this, I know it bugs me from time to time. Dylan Whyte...actually a talented fighter, can punch in combos from angles and has great chin and decent power. Andy Ruiz, great hand speed good technical ability all the way around, Parker, a lot of holes, potentially could become a decent puncher, needs work...etc etc. When we look at Joshua he has shown ability in many areas, and an ability to become a better fighter and that takes the ability to take potential and make it actual.

With Wilder he is doing the same things and even though he has prevailed, we will soon see him against fighters who are getting better, developing and who come in like a modern QB as compared to Stabler. I think that is the difference.

[billeau2]

tal·ent
ˈtalənt/Submit
noun
1.
natural aptitude or skill.

Never talked about height and the fact that he only just started boxing and is able to dominate the heavy weight division and win at an international level is a testament to his natural abilities - talents.

Check mate.

natural qualities are not attributes automatically Hippo. Five men could be tall are they all necessarily talented basketball players? If Wilder can be said to have talent it has to be by virtue of using a natural advantage, not simply having a natural advantage. Like, because of his height he is able to bare down on his punches before the other guy can get close enough to him.

PS I had to edit the first part of this sorry for the confusion Hippo.

[KingHippo]

Lets look at it from another perspective, with no semantics and in another sport:

Kenny Stabler was a great QB, he was smart, tough and mean!! Now take the average kid that has made it as a QB and compare him to Stabler: There is no comparison. Today Stabler would never make the NFL...Kids today have to be much smarter, athleticaly able, and as competitive... But Stabler will always be meaner! The things that a kid playing Qb can do today are much more varied than what Stabler could do at his best.

Now, you want to call that talent versus potential? call it anything because it does not matter what it is called. When a boxing coach looks at a fighter and takes inventory he looks at what the fighter can do. That coach will make a distinction between these abilities and what physical qualities the fighter comes with.

Marciano was a great example of this thinking. He came to boxing relatively late by the standards of his day (not by today's standards) he had absolutely no physical attributes that he could use. Goldman was a genius and saw a way to develop different attributes...But in the final analysis if one looks at tape of Marciano, we could list things he learned to do because I guess he had the talent to learn to do those things his way.

Now, we have a bunch of young fighters climbing up the ranks. Many people do not see talent when it is right in front of them and I suspect Jugs might be responding to this, I know it bugs me from time to time. Dylan Whyte...actually a talented fighter, can punch in combos from angles and has great chin and decent power. Andy Ruiz, great hand speed good technical ability all the way around, Parker, a lot of holes, potentially could become a decent puncher, needs work...etc etc. When we look at Joshua he has shown ability in many areas, and an ability to become a better fighter and that takes the ability to take potential and make it actual.

With Wilder he is doing the same things and even though he has prevailed, we will soon see him against fighters who are getting better, developing and who come in like a modern QB as compared to Stabler. I think that is the difference.

You're being pedantic. And we can't take out "semantics" just because this is what the whole argument is about. Natural aptitudes are talents, whether you like it or not. And strenght and fitness are clearly aptitudes, are they not?

Wilder is exceptionally gifted, one of of the most naturally gifted fighters to box at heavy weight. Hence why he was able to dominate over more skilled fighters and win at an international level even though he started late. Joshua is definitely skilled, but whether his skill set is "exceptional" is debatable.

[juggernaut666]

tal·ent
ˈtalənt/Submit
noun
1.
natural aptitude or skill.

Never talked about height and the fact that he only just started boxing and is able to dominate the heavy weight division and win at an international level is a testament to his natural abilities - talents.

Check mate.

It doesn't matter when he started ,his skills in TEN years as a pro show hes not a RARE talent which is the thread TOPIC !

And if you think he is the only checking here is you.........

That is in a mental hospital !

[KingHippo]

It doesn't matter when he started ,his skills in TEN years as a pro show hes not a RARE talent which is the thread TOPIC !

And if you think he is the only checking here is you.........

That is in a mental hospital !

Oh, the classic ad hominen, favorite tool of the intellectually inept.

[billeau2]

You're being pedantic. And we can't take out "semantics" just because this is what the whole argument is about. Natural aptitudes are talents, whether you like it or not. And strenght and fitness are clearly aptitudes, are they not?

Wilder is exceptionally gifted, one of of the most naturally gifted fighters to box at heavy weight. Hence why he was able to dominate over more skilled fighters and win at an international level even though he started late. Joshua is definitely skilled, but whether his skill set is "exceptional" is debatable.

First off: please look at the post before this I had to edit it, sorry about that.

Your assuming that just by virtue of a one dimensional quality an aptitude is present and that is clearly not the case. As far as Wilder he is strong and tall, and his ability to use those qualities to box makes him an exceptional athlete, for which he has an aptitude. Boxing is more than just an athletic endevour and having an aptitude as a fighter, learning the skills and making them your own is a process and Wilder just is not on the same skill level as other fighters at the top.

Can his athletic ability carry him? We shall see. Joshua's skill set is not debatable, whether one believe Wilder could athletically overcome him, or not...take a notepad and a pencil and watch 5 fights from Wilder and Joshua and write down the different things both men can do in the ring, whats the debate?

When Ray Robinson was fighting most men could do a lot of things in the ring, but he could do one thiing that really made people speak of his talent, he could knock you out moving backwards. Its very simple: That is hard to do and very few can do it, no debate required.