What "evidence" is there Mayweather is on roids?

[GhostofDempsey]

You chose his opinion because it re-enforces your own bias. As far as red-flags (since there is no undeniable proof) for each are:

Pac:

• refused blood testing beyond 30 days prior to fight during first negotiations (later dropped to 7 days for rest of negotiations).
  Toradol request for Mayweather fight

Floyd:

• Abnormally low T-E in released tests (indicator of masking agent in use)
  Banned IV usage (TUE retroactively provided but banned as a masking agent)
  Fined $114,000 for refusing to answer questioning under oath from Pacquiao's lawyers.
  Documented Xylocane usage (approved by NSAC)

Now there's a lot of hearsay about them, much more noise against Pac. People also say Pac's speed/power stayed with him as he climbed weights is proof but Floyd maintained his speed and had enough power to keep everyone in check up to 154 even with brittle hands. Some people say Pac's head growth is proof, others say Floyd's head has grown as weel ( I say both filled out with age). SOme say Pac grew more, both started at same weight at same ages but Floyd got bigger, most noticeably, late in his career when he put on a lot more bulk and no longer did same day weigh ins.


Look at things logically and keeping your bias in check its really easy to see that there are red flags for both guys, however, one has more documented flags vs hearsay.

Floyd also had more stoppage wins after 140, so if we are using the knockouts coming up in weight as an indicator you can't rule that out.

This thread quickly turned into a Floyd fan circle jerk. What else is new? Lol.

[madsweeney]

I chose his opinion as an expert in the subject. As should you.

If we were debating basketball rules regarding offensive line, who would you rather listen to? Some bum sitting on the couch watching Lebron, or D'Antoni himself?

Let's talk about the first one. Refusing RANDOM blood and urine testing. He didn't refuse testing, he refused RANDOM testing. Why? Because as Conte says, you'd have to be stupid to fail announced testing. Regardless, straight from Freddie Roach:

Regarding the second one, from Memo Heredia. And this one stands out because there are other posts calling Floyd's Xylocane a PED because it blocks pain, yet refuse to call Manny's Toradol a PED for the same reason, even though Toradol is more widely (ab)used in sports to block pain receptors.

Manny was able to stop four guys who normally fought at 154 after debuting at 106. Floyd never did that - except McGregor. Come on man, we just saw Choco go up 3 POUNDS and get sparked.

Anyone who works martial arts will tell you that snap punches hurt regardless. That's what he's good at - snapping the punch. Thus why Trinidad's punches didn't do anything against Mayorga at first - they didn't snap, and Mayorga was prepared for them.

If anything Floyd's head got smaller.

Look, fact is we don't know why Floyd took an IV. But we do know that PEDs are associated with three things: Stamina, power and speed. Before 2005 Manny had speed and power. Between 2005-2011 Manny had all three - then 2012 onward he only had stamina...same time Alex Ariza left the camp. That's suspect. Him losing to Jeff "The Hornet" Horn is proof positive he lost his power AND speed.

Floyd has only ever had speed and stamina. He had it when he started, he had it when he finished. He's never had power. No fight he's had has shown any inkling of increased power. No fight he's had has shown any fluctuation in stamina or speed. Ever. Those fighters he got TKO or KOs on were because of accumulation, not power. His fights were consistent, even Castillo 1, even Maidana 1.

See, if I take a fighter who starts at a lower class (where there's expected to be power), moves up WAY too many weight classes with ease (where you should be losing power), yet you're walking through larger fighters all of a sudden, seemingly a tank who is not affected by flush power shots by guys who are considered the most dangerous in their division...and I contrast that with a guy who never really had power, where every fight was consistently the same, stamina and speed, defense first...

I'm less likely to support the notion that Fighter B is doing anything that rises to the level of a performance enhancing drug.

To me, pain meds for your hands are not PEDs. They're pain meds. Same as weed. Or liquor. They all dull pain.

I don't think Toradol is a PED specifically, but my problem is when your adviser puts on a form that you are not hurt, then you show up fight night looking for a numbing agent where you would have been granted it fine had you disclosed the injury...yeah, that's suspicious.

1. I treat all opinions (professional or not) as that, opinions, not fact.
2. He refused random blood testing with no cut-off. Requested 30 day cut-off. C'mon man this **** been done for years don't need to re-write history to suit your agenda. And yes, they botched the first negotiation for whatever reason (most likely didn't want to risk the fight yet)
3. Xylocane and Toradol can both be considered PED's but are not by WADA, they are only allowed with per-approved permission. One is an anti-inflammatory (think Advil) the other is a numbing agent (think shot when getting a filling). A major difference in their situations, one was allowed to use, the other REQUESTED AND WAS DENIED.
4. Who are these 154 lbers Pac KO'ed? The biggest guy he "stopped" was Cotto who at the time, was a career 140/147 fighter. He had one fight @ Jr MW, against Marg where he failed to KO him and Marg was still a 147 fighter at the time. Pac has TKO @ 147, Cotto and DHL (quit). Floyd has 3, Hatton (KO), Ortiz (KO) and O'Connor (TKO). These are facts, not your BS revisionist opinion.
5. Unless you have measurements, stop with the head growth BS. One thing is for sure, Floyd filled out @ 147, Pac looks pretty much the same as 135 (less cut).
6. Once again, opinion, not fact. One guy fights highly technically with defense/efficientcy prioritized. The other guy has been in dozens of wars and relied on athleticism and akwardness, they are naturally going to have different wear and tear and longevity.
5. Know your history, at the age they started fighting (16) both men weighed about the same, Pac was pro, Floyd was amature at that time. Floyd had a larger frame so started Pro in a higher weight class (and 2 years older than Pac who fought underage). If I recall correctly, Floyd had a higher KO % than pac under 140 so he had power and it obviously was enough to carry him up to 154 lbs. Neither were KO'ing people left and right at 147. Pac always had a beard so not surprising he was able to take some good shots for a while at 147. Meanwhile, Pac saw noticable decline in speed and stamina around 33-35, meanwhile Floyd looked as quick and fresh at 40 as he did 33. Once again you're messing with biased opinion with objective facts.
7. Once again, both are not considered PED's by WADA but are banned without proactive TUE for medical reasons. One guy took them, one guy was denied and didn't take it. Funny you suspect the guy that tried to get permission but didn't use the drug over the guy who actually did. And again, one is essentially localized, inject-able ibuprofen...the other a local anesthetic.

[madsweeney]

Floyd also had more stoppage wins after 140, so if we are using the knockouts coming up in weight as an indicator you can't rule that out.

This thread quickly turned into a Floyd fan circle jerk. What else is new? Lol.

More stoppages, fought bigger guys had far less visible signs of declining even though hes older...yea

[Combat Talk Radio]

1. I treat all opinions (professional or not) as that, opinions, not fact.

Professional opinions have more credibility than stated facts from people not in the business. DO you understand this?

Would you happily take someone's medical opinion off the street that looked it up on Google and stated it as "fact" over a doctor that'd been doing it for 10 years?

2. He refused random blood testing with no cut-off. Requested 30 day cut-off. C'mon man this **** been done for years don't need to re-write history to suit your agenda. And yes, they botched the first negotiation for whatever reason (most likely didn't want to risk the fight yet)

He refused random testing PERIOD. He wanted to be notified when they were going to come. That is the specific reason it fell apart. Arum and Roach are both on record as saying such. Stop ignoring what matters: Manny ducked random blood and urine testing. That's suspect. Period.

3. Xylocane and Toradol can both be considered PED's but are not by WADA, they are only allowed with per-approved permission. One is an anti-inflammatory (think Advil) the other is a numbing agent (think shot when getting a filling). A major difference in their situations, one was allowed to use, the other REQUESTED AND WAS DENIED.

Floyd reported his hand situation properly.

Manny did not report his shoulder situation properly.
That's why he got denied. Koncz, NSAC and USADA are all on record as saying such.

After the fight Arum all but admitted he knew Manny was injuring going in. Go back and look at the post fight interview. I even posted video about it. Yet they marked on the form he was not. That's suspect.

After the fight Roach is on record saying he wanted to pull out of the fight because he knew Manny got injured during sparring. Yet they marked on the form he was not. That's suspect.

I don't know who really is at fault. All I know is, it's suspect. You got a guy in Koncz who lies on a critical form that affects a multi-million dollar fight, you got Arum and Roach who both know and keep it hush. Then day of the fight try to get a numbing agent that nobody knows you need because you filled out a form saying you didn't need it. That's suspect man.

And don't even try to equate a numbing agent all over the news for abuse against Advil. Any drug can be abused, which is why there's a disclosure form that requires you fill out it with the truth. Manny didn't do that.

4. Who are these 154 lbers Pac KO'ed? Pac has TKO @ 147, Cotto and DHL (quit). Floyd has 3, Hatton (KO), Ortiz (KO) and O'Connor (TKO).

I said he stopped guys who were career middleweights, NOT that he faced them at MW. There's a difference.

Cotto: Stopped. Late career MW/light MW @ 154. Thus his nickname "Catchweight Cotto".
De La Hoya: Stopped. Late career light MW which goes up 154.
Margarito: Manny asked the ref to stop it because it was so bad, I count that as a stop and we all know the fight should have been stopped. Late career light MW which goes up to 154.
Clottey: had that been Tony Weeks or Jay Nady you know it would have been stopped due to not punching back, I count that. Half career light MW which goes up to 154.

Contrast against Floyd that was never close to stopping Canelo, Cotto or De La Hoya. Performances are night and day. Canelo got embarrased but he could have fought another fight after that one, he was completely unmarked.

Hatton basically knocked himself out.
Ortiz was a sucker punch according to NSB and doesn't count.

5. Unless you have measurements, stop with the head growth BS. One thing is for sure, Floyd filled out @ 147, Pac looks pretty much the same as 135 (less cut).

I'm not going to argue this. Pacquiao's head is CLEARLY more round and bigger later in the game. Done.

If I recall correctly, Floyd had a higher KO % than pac under 140 so he had power and it obviously was enough to carry him up to 154 lbs. Neither were KO'ing people left and right at 147. Pac always had a beard so not surprising he was able to take some good shots for a while at 147.

You forget that Manny's stoppage/KO streak happened at 147. But let's just use the beard as an excuse.

[Gigantes]

This is such a shltty post


Why don't you explain to us how he used the IV to mask PED's.


Xylocaine is legal if you can prove there is a need for it. Being that the commission's doctor is in a video discussing the use of Xylocaine with Mayweather discussing his hand issues which aired before one of his fights, I think that shows you're pretty desperate.


Hairline? LMAO. Dude. You're a shltty butthurt poster. Really.


But by all means, go ahead. Tell us how you deem that someone who scraps the most lucrative boxing match at the time because he was apparently afraid of needles is clean, and the one who goes thru drug testing is dirty. Focus on the IV if you like. You might learn how ******ed you are.

Oh, and the cycling off. LMAO. Care to expand on that for us? Let's hear what you've got.

Those are the fact's provided, go do your homework idiot. I'm not going to sit here and go back and forth with you. I don't know you. You can suck a dick for all I care. The facts are the facts. Whether you want to believe them or not, I don't give a fu**. Facts are there. Deal with it.

You idiots get too invested and too emotional. I dare you to record yourself going up to a random stranger and calling them a ******.

You internet tough guys get off your chair and do something with your life, it isn't too late.

[Gigantes]

Your point is? I don't know why you bring up Manny when I was clearly talking about Floyd in a Floyd discussed debate.

Speaking of Manny, I assume he juiced as well during his peak when he had that firepower.

lol firepower, he only knocks out face first no head movement hatton, here comes the fire power

[Gigantes]

Floyd also had more stoppage wins after 140, so if we are using the knockouts coming up in weight as an indicator you can't rule that out.

This thread quickly turned into a Floyd fan circle jerk. What else is new? Lol.

lol 4 reals man, I create other threads, no one talks. I create something on Manny/*Floyd, the c0ckroaches come out full force.

Ain't no one on here really trying to talk boxing, just look at the proof of this little experiment I just did.

I've created boxing topics, yet no one talks, I create 1-2 Manny/*Floyd topics, 30+ pages lmao. All my test subjects came out and showed up just like hypothesized.

One thing's for sure, I've made their Monday and Tuesday's entertaining, sucks for them once this thread is over with, they'll have to find another thread to get their hard on.

[Gigantes]

1. I treat all opinions (professional or not) as that, opinions, not fact.
2. He refused random blood testing with no cut-off. Requested 30 day cut-off. C'mon man this **** been done for years don't need to re-write history to suit your agenda. And yes, they botched the first negotiation for whatever reason (most likely didn't want to risk the fight yet)
3. Xylocane and Toradol can both be considered PED's but are not by WADA, they are only allowed with per-approved permission. One is an anti-inflammatory (think Advil) the other is a numbing agent (think shot when getting a filling). A major difference in their situations, one was allowed to use, the other REQUESTED AND WAS DENIED.
4. Who are these 154 lbers Pac KO'ed? The biggest guy he "stopped" was Cotto who at the time, was a career 140/147 fighter. He had one fight @ Jr MW, against Marg where he failed to KO him and Marg was still a 147 fighter at the time. Pac has TKO @ 147, Cotto and DHL (quit). Floyd has 3, Hatton (KO), Ortiz (KO) and O'Connor (TKO). These are facts, not your BS revisionist opinion.
5. Unless you have measurements, stop with the head growth BS. One thing is for sure, Floyd filled out @ 147, Pac looks pretty much the same as 135 (less cut).
6. Once again, opinion, not fact. One guy fights highly technically with defense/efficientcy prioritized. The other guy has been in dozens of wars and relied on athleticism and akwardness, they are naturally going to have different wear and tear and longevity.
5. Know your history, at the age they started fighting (16) both men weighed about the same, Pac was pro, Floyd was amature at that time. Floyd had a larger frame so started Pro in a higher weight class (and 2 years older than Pac who fought underage). If I recall correctly, Floyd had a higher KO % than pac under 140 so he had power and it obviously was enough to carry him up to 154 lbs. Neither were KO'ing people left and right at 147. Pac always had a beard so not surprising he was able to take some good shots for a while at 147. Meanwhile, Pac saw noticable decline in speed and stamina around 33-35, meanwhile Floyd looked as quick and fresh at 40 as he did 33. Once again you're messing with biased opinion with objective facts.
7. Once again, both are not considered PED's by WADA but are banned without proactive TUE for medical reasons. One guy took them, one guy was denied and didn't take it. Funny you suspect the guy that tried to get permission but didn't use the drug over the guy who actually did. And again, one is essentially localized, inject-able ibuprofen...the other a local anesthetic.

nicely said, great post

[madsweeney]

Professional opinions have more credibility than stated facts from people not in the business. DO you understand this?

Would you happily take someone's medical opinion off the street that looked it up on Google and stated it as "fact" over a doctor that'd been doing it for 10 years?




He refused random testing PERIOD. He wanted to be notified when they were going to come. That is the specific reason it fell apart. Arum and Roach are both on record as saying such. Stop ignoring what matters: Manny ducked random blood and urine testing. That's suspect. Period.



Floyd reported his hand situation properly.

Manny did not report his shoulder situation properly.
That's why he got denied. Koncz, NSAC and USADA are all on record as saying such.

I don't know who really is at fault. All I know is, it's suspect. You got a guy in Koncz who lies on a critical form that affects a multi-million dollar fight, you got Arum and Roach who both know and keep it hush. Then day of the fight try to get a numbing agent that nobody knows you need because you filled out a form saying you didn't need it. That's suspect man.

And don't even try to equate a numbing agent all over the news for abuse against Advil. Any drug can be abused, which is why there's a disclosure form that requires you fill out it with the truth. Manny didn't do that.


After the fight Arum all but admitted he knew Manny was injuring going in. Go back and look at the post fight interview. I even posted video about it. Yet they marked on the form he was not. That's suspect.

After the fight Roach is on record saying he wanted to pull out of the fight because he knew Manny got injured during sparring. Yet they marked on the form he was not. That's suspect.



I said he stopped guys who were career middleweights, NOT that he faced them at MW. There's a difference.

Cotto: Stopped. Late career MW/light MW @ 154. Thus his nickname "Catchweight Cotto".
De La Hoya: Stopped. Late career light MW which goes up 154.
Margarito: Manny asked the ref to stop it because it was so bad, I count that as a stop and we all know the fight should have been stopped. Late career light MW which goes up to 154.
Clottey: had that been Tony Weeks or Jay Nady you know it would have been stopped due to not punching back, I count that. Half career light MW which goes up to 154.

Contrast against Floyd that was never close to stopping Canelo, Cotto or De La Hoya. Performances are night and day. Canelo got embarrased but he could have fought another fight after that one, he was completely unmarked.

Hatton basically knocked himself out.
Ortiz was a sucker punch according to NSB and doesn't count.




I'm not going to argue this. Pacquiao's head is CLEARLY more round and bigger later in the game. Done.



You forget that Manny's stoppage/KO streak happened at 147. But let's just use the beard as an excuse.

You're argument over Tordorol is moot, HE WAS DENIED and DIDN'T TAKE IT.

Once again, WHAT ****ING KO/STOPPAGE STREAK. Look at boxrec for ****s sake, he has 2 TKO at 147....Cotto and DHL...two TKO's isn't some crazy KO streak...

And claiming Pac KO'ed all these career MW's (even they fought at WW and were not KO'ed) because years later, at the end of their careers, they moved up to 154 (Jr MW, not MW)....I'm done, you're just too stupid to debate.

[Quiksilva]

lol firepower, he only knocks out face first no head movement hatton, here comes the fire power

You must be a deluded idiot if you think everyone is "CLEAN" in pro sports .

Continue to live in your mothers basement and dream world because you have no idea of reality.