The Greatest fighter that ever Lived!!!

[ferocity]

EVER?!

Well, that would boil down to a handful of exceptional individuals; but I think the name is on this list:

Sugar Ray Robinson
Harry Greb
Stanley Ketchel
Henry Armstrong
Joe Louis
Jimmy Wilde
Willie Pep
Charley Burley
Muhammad Ali
Eder Jofre
Carlos Monzon....hey, when was the last time he lost?
Sam Langford
Jack Dempsey "The Nonpareil"
Roberto Duran
Aaron Pryor....hey, if not for the whole drug abuse thing, not impossible, here.

I'm sure there are others; but those are the ones that come to mind immediately who could wear that title.

you have sam langford but not jack johnson?

in another board their was lots of talk about these two and info i got is the jack johnson beat sam langford. though i've heard teh legends of langford and know many think highly of him, i think thier is a lot of questions and myths about him.

[ferocity]

but thats when he was the best ali you will ever see.
HE WAS AWESOME!
i dont think it would be possible for him to lose at that stage of his career.

though im a fan of ali many felt he did lose to Doug Jones, in fact many historins recall this fact......and same goes with Henry Cooper, though Ali tko'd him had it not been for the cheating -as we/some say about corrales- then Ali would be ready to get ko'd the following round, but because of the glove insident he was give a gang of time to recover.

and though yes, i aggree that those three years that were taken away from him was wrong and we could have seen an even better ali, ali still have close fights even before the suspension. and though ali was suspened from boxing, he had many, many exibitions to keep his skills sharp, but still not the same level as real competition.

[K-DOGG]

you have sam langford but not jack johnson?

in another board their was lots of talk about these two and info i got is the jack johnson beat sam langford. though i've heard teh legends of langford and know many think highly of him, i think thier is a lot of questions and myths about him.

Well, the thing is Jack beat Langford early in Sam's career when he wasn't much more than a middleweight. Langford got better as he got older and began beating heavyweights and bulked up himself....the controversy is that Johnson never defended against him after he became a heavyweight threat.

[K-DOGG]

Sorry, My bad, got confused with Henry Cooper.

Phew! You scared me there for a minute.

[ferocity]

Well, the thing is Jack beat Langford early in Sam's career when he wasn't much more than a middleweight. Langford got better as he got older and began beating heavyweights and bulked up himself....the controversy is that Johnson never defended against him after he became a heavyweight threat.

so langfor got better, well....so did Jack Johnson!

[K-DOGG]

so langfor got better, well....so did Jack Johnson!

Not necessarily. Remember, Johnson was defending against the Great White Hope campaign, not necessarily the best fighters out there. Langford, McVey, and Jeanette, who were considered the big four, fought each other regularly while Johnson fought the likes of an old Jim Jeffries, Fireman Jim Flynn, Frank Moran and the like while he was growing older.

[ferocity]

Not necessarily. Remember, Johnson was defending against the Great White Hope campaign, not necessarily the best fighters out there. Langford, McVey, and Jeanette, who were considered the big four, fought each other regularly while Johnson fought the likes of an old Jim Jeffries, Fireman Jim Flynn, Frank Moran and the like while he was growing older.

I'll quote floyd "its a busniess move"

I don't know much of these fights, i've only heard a few things about langford and mcvey. you already know the rumors with johnson and him fighting the great white hopes.

and didn't mcvey also lose to jack johnson?

jack johson laid out, stanley mitchell, i think he was a middleweight moving up to challenge johnson and got ko'd but managed to floor johnson. i know the langford was a smaller fighter then johnson and had speed as mitchell but this is where the bigger man beats the smaller man. before ali their was johnson who used a lot of feints in his game. and talk about crossing the color line barrier this should go to jack johnson, the man dated white women even married one all this talk of jackie robinson crossing the color barrier first is ridicules and if not johnson then clearly joe louis, who was loved by both races.

[K-DOGG]

I'll quote floyd "its a busniess move"

I don't know much of these fights, i've only heard a few things about langford and mcvey. you already know the rumors with johnson and him fighting the great white hopes.

and didn't mcvey also lose to jack johnson?

jack johson laid out, stanley mitchell, i think he was a middleweight moving up to challenge johnson and got ko'd but managed to floor johnson. i know the langford was a smaller fighter then johnson and had speed as mitchell but this is where the bigger man beats the smaller man. before ali their was johnson who used a lot of feints in his game. and talk about crossing the color line barrier this should go to jack johnson, the man dated white women even married one all this talk of jackie robinson crossing the color barrier first is ridicules and if not johnson then clearly joe louis, who was loved by both races.

Okay. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say; but I'll do my best.

1. McVey, Jeanette, and Langford were all a little younger than Johnson, if I'm not mistaken and the criticism of Johnson is that he didnt' defend against any of them. True, he beat them when they were younger and while he was entering his prime; but that is equivalent to Larry Holmes at 30 fighting a 15 year old Tyson....or at least similar in comparison.

2. Of course it was business. White people wanted Johnson to lose and would pay to see a White Hope beat him, so Jack took the fights and embarrassed their asses.

3. The fight with Stanley Ketchel was "rigged"; Johnson agreed to carry Stanley so the middleweight champ would look good; but Ketchel went for the knock-out and caught Johnson with a hard right hand. Jack climbed off the canvas and slammed Ketchel so hard, he embeded four of his teeth in his glove and knocked Stanly uncounscious. However, Ketchel was a mere 158 Lbs, if memory severs me correctly; so this fight had no bearing whatsoever on who belongs where in the pantheon of pound-4-pound greatness.

4. Johnson cared about Jack Johnson and no one else whenever he made a decision concerning race. He did what he wanted and he wanted what he saw white men in similar posisitons haveing. Ergo, white women and such. If anything, Johnson's attitude and personality hurt race relations...not that they were that good at that time anyway with Jim Crow Laws in place. But, the fact that it was 20 years after Johnson lost the title before another Black man got a shot says something. Johnson was White America's worst fears realized and he did nothing compared to Robinson and Louis in terms of race relations. Still, this should have nothing to do with his contributions to the prize ring....and he is an all time great fighter. Personally, I've got him in my Top Ten Greatest Heavyweights of All time list.....but not pound-4-pound.

Looking for the greatest fighter EVER has nothing to do with the size of the man. It's about the skill of the man. And while Jack Johnson was a defensive genius for his time, I don't know if I would say he was the best fighter who ever lived.

Though, he could have been; just not from what I've seen.

[blockhead]

he is the best HW of all time.

nope, sorry but he wasnt.

[ferocity]

Okay. I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say; but I'll do my best.

1. McVey, Jeanette, and Langford were all a little younger than Johnson, if I'm not mistaken and the criticism of Johnson is that he didnt' defend against any of them. True, he beat them when they were younger and while he was entering his prime; but that is equivalent to Larry Holmes at 30 fighting a 15 year old Tyson....or at least similar in comparison.

you say langford and mcvey were a bit younger then johnson how much is a bit younger? if america wanted to see johnson defeated, especially since he like white women then i think they would have settled with langford who probably would have behaved himself as americans would expect of him too at the time. I just think its unfair to say he would of lost to them, and putting them ahead of johnson i totally disaggree, to many what if's with langfor and mcvey to say they could have beaten johnson.

. Of course it was business. White people wanted Johnson to lose and would pay to see a White Hope beat him, so Jack took the fights and embarrassed their asses.

if you understand that it was a business how can you say he ducked langford and mcvey? fighters he already beat. doesn't make sense to me.

the fight with Stanley Ketchel was "rigged"; Johnson agreed to carry Stanley so the middleweight champ would look good; but Ketchel went for the knock-out and caught Johnson with a hard right hand. Jack climbed off the canvas and slammed Ketchel so hard, he embeded four of his teeth in his glove and knocked Stanly uncounscious. However, Ketchel was a mere 158 Lbs, if memory severs me correctly; so this fight had no bearing whatsoever on who belongs where in the pantheon of pound-4-pound greatness.

possable could have been rigged, we don't know.

4. Johnson cared about Jack Johnson and no one else whenever he made a decision concerning race. He did what he wanted and he wanted what he saw white men in similar posisitons haveing. Ergo, white women and such. If anything, Johnson's attitude and personality hurt race relations...not that they were that good at that time anyway with Jim Crow Laws in place. But, the fact that it was 20 years after Johnson lost the title before another Black man got a shot says something. Johnson was White America's worst fears realized and he did nothing compared to Robinson and Louis in terms of race relations. Still, this should have nothing to do with his contributions to the prize ring....and he is an all time great fighter. Personally, I've got him in my Top Ten Greatest Heavyweights of All time list.....but not pound-4-pound.

you say he hurt race relations, but he was allowed to live, what im saying is back then for what johnson was doing at the time... had he not been a respected boxer, he would have been killed by somone at some point in his career. and if they wanted him to loss so badly and hatted the fact that a black man is dating a white women, then surely if they thought langford or mcvey could beat johnson they would have allowed them to defeat johnson and this is what im saying...that even johnsons worst enemies didn't feel confident enough to belive langford or mcvey could beat johnson.

i know langford or mcvey weren't rich men and im sure they would have followed the then crows laws, as opposed to johnson.

Looking for the greatest fighter EVER has nothing to do with the size of the man. It's about the skill of the man. And while Jack Johnson was a defensive genius for his time, I don't know if I would say he was the best fighter who ever lived.

Though, he could have been; just not from what I've seen.

im not even suggesting that johnson is the greatest fighter of all time -though he was defently ahead of his time- but he derves more respect then just sepculation that his long nemisis could of defeated him, it just doesnt make sense. but opinions are opinions.

i personally never seen even a video clip of langford, but seen a few of johnson and he was fast for a big man and wasn't no plowdder.