You Say Horn Won? Show Your Scorecard

[Lomadeaux]

Jeff Horn is terrible!

Are you kidding? The guy just went to life and death with Pacquiao and won. Albeit it was a bad decision, he's far from horrible. The casual world wants to call this a travesty, it wasn't.
It was a close fight with a bad decision.

C'mon man... Dude's a prizefighter who is extremely modest and humble. Nothing better than that.

[juggernaut666]

This is exactly why I need a complete breakdown and explanations if you have them.

See, I have a theory about those who saw it for Horn.

Namely, that they cannot, when asked, find a way to justify the rounds they scored for him by any objective means.

I made this thread to see if they could prove me wrong.

I'll watch the fight again .I just dont see how Atlas remotely corresponded with reality ,i also think fans today forget that body shots count .

[loui_ludwig]

I'll watch the fight again .I just dont see how Atlas remotely corresponded with reality ,i also think fans today forget that body shots count .

You seen Lennox Lewis tweet about the fight?

[TonyGe]

My impression is very similar to yours. In the first half I gave Horn the first and sixth rounds.

[Combat Talk Radio]

Those of you who had Horn winning, please show your scorecards.

You may explain why you scored certain rounds the way you did.

If you had Manny, you can also share it here but I am really interested in how folks saw Horn winning.

For the record, I had it 116-112 Manny. No 10-8 rounds.

I had Pac winning 2,3,4,5,8,9,11, and twelve.

I had Horn winning 1, 6,7, and 10.

I had 5 rounds close enough to be scored either way (1,4,6,7,10) and gave 4 of them to Horn...with means I could have had it a lot wider for Manny.

Horn butted Manny twice- in the 6th and 7th-producing gashes on both sides of Pac's head.

What is interesting is that while I scored both rounds for Horn, in the 7th Manny outlanded Horn 21-12 (18-8 in powershots), so maybe I fell prey to scoring the blood instead of punches there.

There's mine.

You folks who thought Horn won, get in here and explain your cards.

I'll bite. And for the record, I'm watching the version WITHOUT Teddy Atlas.



Round 1: 0-1 Horn
Watch what Jeff is doing. He uses jabs and the right to make Manny step backwards, then follows up with additional punches because Manny isn't going side to side to evade anything. He nails Manny with the right tons of times and roughhouses him to show he doesn't respect this man. As Manny Steward always said, the worst thing you can do against a straight puncher is go backwards.

Manny has a few counters of note, but overall, Horn was more active, more aggressive and controlled the pace of the fight.

Round 2: 0-2 Horn
Jeff is feinting with the jab to make Manny drop his hands so he can land something. Meanwhile he's constantly - CONSTANTLY - moving laterally and forcing Manny to reset himself. Manny lunges in frustration and gets tagged on quite a few occasions.

Jeff pulls a Porter and "linebackers" to again force Manny back to the ropes so he can go to the body. No respect given.

Manny is in full counter attack mode and has SOME success, but Horn is just too active. Manny tried to steal the round at the end, but he only landed a few punches at best and no combos like he usually would.

Round 3: 1-2 Manny
Inside work. Jeff keeps closing the distance and landing short right hooks. Manny keeps getting walked back. More bullying from Horn and Manny goes into clam mode. Horn is getting hit but he's rolling a lot of the punches. More counterattack mode from Manny and no combos. He even shoulder rolls for a hot minute. Look at the head movement from Horn. I gave this to Manny as the main 'swing' round, he landed really good counters.

Round 4: 1-3 Horn

Horn straight bullies Manny, then shoots straight up the middle. Timing for shots. Feints in with a jab combo then lands a flush right. Manny is doing the walking down now, but Horn is much more active than Manny. Strafes him while throwing - shades of prime Manny. Manny isn't landing anything of note and is getting pushed back.

Round 5: 2-3 Manny
Excellent body work by Horn and great work against the ropes. Manny lands some good shots coming in as Horn gasses late, but Horn is just swinging for the fences. He had some success but I didn't see he had enough to stop Manny's counter.

Round 6: 2-4 Horn
Horn's work on the ropes was excellent (uppercuts too) and Manny didn't have an answer until he brought it back to the center. Manny gets butted but it didn't affect him. Horn is again bullying Manny and pushing him back but Manny is finally back to strafing a little bit. Manny tries to go for his signature combo and gets NAILED to the body, backed up and bullied again. Manny landed some punches, but Horn was way more aggressive.

Round 7: 2-5 Horn
Old Manny starts to show up here as his punches are making Horn reset a bit. As long as Manny stays in the middle he seems to have more success. Horn's size may be playing a factor this time, he keeps "linebackering" Manny to make him reset. Horn's getting hit much more this time than in previous rounds, another headbutt, still doesn't seem to affect Manny. Horn lands the right hand at will late in the fight and tags him on the ropes. Manny finally steps up to try and save the round but I don't think it was enough.

Round 8: 3-5 Manny
Horn effective with the jab and trying to get inside for more, but Manny is in 100% counter mode. Horn gets pushed down - had Manny been at range, it would have been a clear knockdown but he was too close. Jeff combos to get in close but isn't as effective as before. Manny nailing some good shots to the body and Horn gets chinchecked late.

Round 9: 4-5 Manny
Horn comes out strong with the right. Manny wobbles him with a huge left. Now
Horn is on the backfoot ala Hearns against Hagler; he's out on his feet. Walking back and Manny starts pivoting with shots clean. Easy to score this one; shades of Bradley/Vargas round 12. This is where all of Horn's facial damage came from - this ONE round.

"Show me something in this round (10) or I'm gonna stop it!"

Round 10: 4-6 Horn
Horn hasn't fully recovered but he's using the jab to keep Manny off so he can recover. Manny is still landing shots but his activity has gone down from the last round; he's demoralized this guy is still in front of him. Horn kicks up the adrenaline until he gets his legs back and keeps pushing Manny back with the jab. Horn nails Manny on a hook exchange and Manny goes back tentative. Manny is getting hit again and stops throwing.

Round 11: 5-6 Manny
This is Arum's 'swing' round. Horn's back on strong legs. Manny lands some shots but gets backed up to the ropes constantly. Great body work from Horn this round. Manny lands flush shots and Horn's chin is on display. Manny jabs the hell out of him to close the round. Clear Manny round for me.

Round 12 5-7 Horn
Horn is laying it all on the line as he comes out throwing for the fences - he knows he has to show up this round. More linebacking while Manny goes for the body to slow him down. Horn lands thudding blows up and downstairs. Horn starts eating shots so he can give some in return. Solid flurry and pivot by Manny as Horn is getting caught, but then Manny gasses and starts getting nailed with shots. Manny is now the one initiating clinches, then Horn comes in with the "linebacker" mode and throws the right up the pipe. They swing for the fences to finish, but Horn got the better of the exchange.


115-113 - Jeff "The Hornet" Horn.

[potski]

Don't expect to get many responses as one would be hard-pressed to find any more than 4 rounds for Horn. But I do believe that it's time for Pac to hang it up cos Horn should've been an easy fight. Prime Pac would've had a field day with Horn's style. Counters all day. His timing and accuracy have diminished considerably. Should call it quits before he gets seriously hurt. What an amazing career though.

[FrankieClutch]

I had it 9-3 Manny, but could see 8-4. 7-5 if you're being extremely generous. Manny landed the cleaner shots and more effective shots. If "being the aggressor" is the only argument for Horn winning, then you DKSAB

[koolkc107]

I gave Horn rounds 1, 4, 7, 10, 11, and 12. I scored it a draw. Rounds 3, 4, 6, 11, and 12 were very close rounds for me. Close fight where 115-113 either was was acceptable to me. Even 116-112 either way isn't insane. 117-111 for Horn is a bad card, but it didn't effect the outcome since Horn won in all 3 cards.

Compubox never tells the whole story, but what it does say is telling sometimes.

You say rd 3 was close. That was a round where Manny outlanded Horn 20 to 7 in total punches and 12 to 6 in power shots.

Round 4 was close.

Round 6 was close.

Round 7 I gave to Horn as well, but as I said earlier I think I scored the blood instead of the punches. Manny outlanded Horn 21 to 12 and 18 to 8 in powershots.

Rd 11 Manny had a 10 to 3 total edge and 6 to 1 in powershots.

Rd 12 Manny had a 19 to 8 total edge and 15 to 6 in powershots.

I think Atlas had a point- if you disregard the obvious look of corruption- that judges were scoring for Horn not because he won rounds but because he was still standing.

The stats- and watching the rounds- show that most were not at all close.

[axelaR]

I had Horn winning 1, 6, 7, 11, 12

Pac 115-113 on my scorecards, some close rounds that could have gone either way.

[Combat Talk Radio]

Compubox never tells the whole story, but what it does say is telling sometimes.

You say rd 3 was close. That was a round where Manny outlanded Horn 20 to 7 in total punches and 12 to 6 in power shots.

Round 4 was close.

Round 6 was close.

Round 7 I gave to Horn as well, but as I said earlier I think I scored the blood instead of the punches. Manny outlanded Horn 21 to 12 and 18 to 8 in powershots.

Rd 11 Manny had a 10 to 3 total edge and 6 to 1 in powershots.

Rd 12 Manny had a 19 to 8 total edge and 15 to 6 in powershots.

I think Atlas had a point- if you disregard the obvious look of corruption- that judges were scoring for Horn not because he won rounds but because he was still standing.

The stats- and watching the rounds- show that most were not at all close.

Ah, that's your problem. It's not about punch count.

Effective Aggression – Being aggressive gives the impression of dominance, but unless the boxer is landing shots and not constantly getting countered, it’s not exactly “effective.” Judges look for effective aggression, where the aggressor consistently lands his punches and avoids those from his opponent.

Ring Generalship – The fighter who controls the action and enforces his will and style.

Defense – How well is a boxer slipping, parrying, and blocking punches? Good defense is important.

Hard and Clean Punches – To the untrained eye, it can appear as if a boxer is landing a lot of shots, when, in fact, most are being blocked or aren’t landing flush. A judge needs to look for hard shots that land clean.

Effective Aggression - Horn was more effective in 7 of the 12 rounds.

Ring Generalship - Horn in all but three rounds.

Defense - Horn was better at it in 7 of the 12 rounds.

HARD and CLEAN Punches - Manny's punches were only hard and clean in 5 of 12 rounds. Horn's punches were hard and clean in 6 of the 12 rounds. The other round didn't have punches worth noting.


It's not about how many you land, it's about what effect they had on the opponent. Even if you labeled Manny a straight up punch machine this fight, he still lost on the other three criteria especially Ring Generalship, because he was getting walked back and bullied all night long except Round 9.