You Say Horn Won? Show Your Scorecard

[koolkc107]

I'll bite. And for the record, I'm watching the version WITHOUT Teddy Atlas.



Round 1: 0-1 Horn
Watch what Jeff is doing. He uses jabs and the right to make Manny step backwards, then follows up with additional punches because Manny isn't going side to side to evade anything. He nails Manny with the right tons of times and roughhouses him to show he doesn't respect this man. As Manny Steward always said, the worst thing you can do against a straight puncher is go backwards.

Manny has a few counters of note, but overall, Horn was more active, more aggressive and controlled the pace of the fight.

Round 2: 0-2 Horn
Jeff is feinting with the jab to make Manny drop his hands so he can land something. Meanwhile he's constantly - CONSTANTLY - moving laterally and forcing Manny to reset himself. Manny lunges in frustration and gets tagged on quite a few occasions.

Jeff pulls a Porter and "linebackers" to again force Manny back to the ropes so he can go to the body. No respect given.

Manny is in full counter attack mode and has SOME success, but Horn is just too active. Manny tried to steal the round at the end, but he only landed a few punches at best and no combos like he usually would.

Round 3: 1-2 Manny
Inside work. Jeff keeps closing the distance and landing short right hooks. Manny keeps getting walked back. More bullying from Horn and Manny goes into clam mode. Horn is getting hit but he's rolling a lot of the punches. More counterattack mode from Manny and no combos. He even shoulder rolls for a hot minute. Look at the head movement from Horn. I gave this to Manny as the main 'swing' round, he landed really good counters.

Round 4: 1-3 Horn

Horn straight bullies Manny, then shoots straight up the middle. Timing for shots. Feints in with a jab combo then lands a flush right. Manny is doing the walking down now, but Horn is much more active than Manny. Strafes him while throwing - shades of prime Manny. Manny isn't landing anything of note and is getting pushed back.

Round 5: 2-3 Manny
Excellent body work by Horn and great work against the ropes. Manny lands some good shots coming in as Horn gasses late, but Horn is just swinging for the fences. He had some success but I didn't see he had enough to stop Manny's counter.

Round 6: 2-4 Horn
Horn's work on the ropes was excellent (uppercuts too) and Manny didn't have an answer until he brought it back to the center. Manny gets butted but it didn't affect him. Horn is again bullying Manny and pushing him back but Manny is finally back to strafing a little bit. Manny tries to go for his signature combo and gets NAILED to the body, backed up and bullied again. Manny landed some punches, but Horn was way more aggressive.

Round 7: 2-5 Horn
Old Manny starts to show up here as his punches are making Horn reset a bit. As long as Manny stays in the middle he seems to have more success. Horn's size may be playing a factor this time, he keeps "linebackering" Manny to make him reset. Horn's getting hit much more this time than in previous rounds, another headbutt, still doesn't seem to affect Manny. Horn lands the right hand at will late in the fight and tags him on the ropes. Manny finally steps up to try and save the round but I don't think it was enough.

Round 8: 3-5 Manny
Horn effective with the jab and trying to get inside for more, but Manny is in 100% counter mode. Horn gets pushed down - had Manny been at range, it would have been a clear knockdown but he was too close. Jeff combos to get in close but isn't as effective as before. Manny nailing some good shots to the body and Horn gets chinchecked late.

Round 9: 4-5 Manny
Horn comes out strong with the right. Manny wobbles him with a huge left. Now
Horn is on the backfoot ala Hearns against Hagler; he's out on his feet. Walking back and Manny starts pivoting with shots clean. Easy to score this one; shades of Bradley/Vargas round 12. This is where all of Horn's facial damage came from - this ONE round.

"Show me something in this round (10) or I'm gonna stop it!"

Round 10: 4-6 Horn
Horn hasn't fully recovered but he's using the jab to keep Manny off so he can recover. Manny is still landing shots but his activity has gone down from the last round; he's demoralized this guy is still in front of him. Horn kicks up the adrenaline until he gets his legs back and keeps pushing Manny back with the jab. Horn nails Manny on a hook exchange and Manny goes back tentative. Manny is getting hit again and stops throwing.

Round 11: 5-6 Manny
This is Arum's 'swing' round. Horn's back on strong legs. Manny lands some shots but gets backed up to the ropes constantly. Great body work from Horn this round. Manny lands flush shots and Horn's chin is on display. Manny jabs the hell out of him to close the round. Clear Manny round for me.

Round 12 5-7 Horn
Horn is laying it all on the line as he comes out throwing for the fences - he knows he has to show up this round. More linebacking while Manny goes for the body to slow him down. Horn lands thudding blows up and downstairs. Horn starts eating shots so he can give some in return. Solid flurry and pivot by Manny as Horn is getting caught, but then Manny gasses and starts getting nailed with shots. Manny is now the one initiating clinches, then Horn comes in with the "linebacker" mode and throws the right up the pipe. They swing for the fences to finish, but Horn got the better of the exchange.


115-113 - Jeff "The Hornet" Horn.

I wont comment on the rounds we scored the same, tho I may take issue with how you describe them.

Compubox had Manny outlanding Horn in round 2 by 14 to 6 total and 9 to 5 in powershots.

Manny clearly won the first minute of the round. You might give the second minute to Horn based on a right hand that got thru but again Manny is landing more, especially catching Horn coming in with a counter jab. And how could you miss the two big left hands Manny landed in the last minute(one around the minute mark and a beautiful counter at the :21 mark) as well as at least two other decent powershots (one to the body) in the last minute.

Horn lost round 2.

Round 4 was close. But I felt the difference was Manny constantly catching Horn on the way in with right jabs and hooks. Best punch of the round was also a body shot by Pac. Manny just more accurate.

Horn lost round 4 but it was close.

I don't see how anyone got rd 12 wrong.

Horn landed a lot of punches...except they don't count as scoring blows when they hit your opponent's gloves. He missed badly most of the round while Manny continued countering sharply only to be grabbed by Horn falling in. Both fighters tired but Horn breathing harder. Not a hard round to score for Manny.

So we disagree- and badly for the most part- on 3 rounds.

If I am right, your card should be 116-112 for Manny, which is what I got originally.

Compubox totals for the 3 rounds in question (and yes, compubox by itself in not proof) has Manny outlanding 44 to 18 total and 31 to 15 in powershots. And he outlanded Horn in all 3 rounds, especially in powershots.

I don't know how to reconcile what I saw and what the punchstat says to what you say you saw.

[koolkc107]

Ah, that's your problem. It's not about punch count.



Effective Aggression - Horn was more effective in 7 of the 12 rounds.

Ring Generalship - Horn in all but three rounds.

Defense - Horn was better at it in 7 of the 12 rounds.

HARD and CLEAN Punches - Manny's punches were only hard and clean in 5 of 12 rounds. Horn's punches were hard and clean in 6 of the 12 rounds. The other round didn't have punches worth noting.


It's not about how many you land, it's about what effect they had on the opponent. Even if you labeled Manny a straight up punch machine this fight, he still lost on the other three criteria especially Ring Generalship, because he was getting walked back and bullied all night long except Round 9.

The aggression was anything but effective.

He missed A LOT of punches and got countered so much coming in his face was altered.

And no, leaning on your opponent after falling in from missed punches is not ring generalship.

And how can you score defense for Horn when he got hit twice as much as his opponent and had the ref willing to stop the fight at one point?

We did not watch the same fight...

[Raonic]

Had Horn all 12 rounds with with Round 9 being 10-8 for Horn.

[koolkc107]

Had Horn all 12 rounds with with Round 9 being 10-8 for Horn.

Ahhh, at least a little honesty.

Looking forward to your round by round breakdown, especially your description of how Horn was mercilessly battering Manny's hands with his face in the 9th...

[hitman smax]

Sometimes a fighter with a completely mangled and rearranged face, like the one Horn had, is actually winning a fight. But it's rare, and it most certainly didn't happen here. I had the fight 9-3 for Pacquiao, and I'm no particular fan of his.

In my opinion, anyone who scored this fight for Horn had a bias of some sort. Either you took a stab on a long shot or you hate Pacquiao or had some other invested interest.

Personally, I have a great appreciation for underdogs pulling off unlikely upsets. But it is an insult to our collective intelligence any time a horrible decision like this is rendered by obviously corrupted judges.

Having said all that, I have absolutely no respect for Pacquiao not voicing an objection to the decision that the judges came back with. I find it disturbing and su****ious that he didn't speak out passionately in protest.

I suspect Pacquiao's handlers and investors know he isn't up for any of the big time fights out there any more, and so they just want to milk this thing for a little more by creating a big time fight where there isn't one.

I'd like to see the whole thing back fire on Arum myself. Either way you slice it Arum will cash in on this stain to boxing's rep, but it would be nice to see one of the other top welterweights put Horn to sleep and expose his lack of true credibility.

Bob Arum is terrible for the sport of boxing. He clearly laughs at us gullible fans by making no attempt to bring greater credibility to the sport he makes his greater fortune in.

My advice to boxing fans, when you see Pacquiao/Horn II selling on pay per view, skip it and write Bob Arum a letter explaining that he'll have to find another sucker for Pacquiao's supposed "trail of redemption".

[Combat Talk Radio]

The aggression was anything but effective.

He missed A LOT of punches and got countered so much coming in his face was altered.

And no, leaning on your opponent after falling in from missed punches is not ring generalship.

And how can you score defense for Horn when he got hit twice as much as his opponent and had the ref willing to stop the fight at one point?

We did not watch the same fight...

Again, all you care about is punch volumes and Round 9.

Did Manny's punches hurt Horn? Only in Round 9 did they.

Did Manny get staggered or knocked back by Horn's punches? In at least 6 rounds, yes.

Was Manny on the backfoot the majority of the fight? Yes.

Manny was not the dominant one in the fight and the judges saw that dude.

IGNORE PUNCH VOLUME for just one moment. Take it out of the equation. Look at how Manny was getting walked down the majority of the fight and tell me he won that clearly.

This is the problem with people on NSB. Same crap that was talked about when Choco got schooled by Rungvisai. These heroes are getting walked down by underdogs, get the decision rightfully so, close though it may be, and you scream robbery. There was no robbery.

I'm fine if a person acknowledges it was a close fight that could have gone either way, over one swing round.

I'm fine if a person acknowledges their favorite fighter was getting bullied and backed up all night long and ultimately got beat by the better guy this night.

I'm fine if a person wants a rematch because maybe their fighter had a bad night.

What I'm not fine with is dismissing how effective Jeff Horn was at nullifying Manny in AT LEAST 6 rounds, or how effective Rungvisai was at nullifying Choco in AT LEAST 6 rounds.


This was a one-round differential fight. Manny was the one that needed to knock the guy out and he failed to do it, period. All he had to do was stop him in round 10 and he failed. Let's accept that.

[R_Walken]

I had it 115-113 Pac

Horn gets credit for being aggressive which obviously influenced the judges since he's fighting in his hometown

But he wasn't effective with that aggression at all

Heres my scorecard and I was being generous to Horn


1 Horn
2 Pac
3 Pac
4 Horn
5 Pac
6 Horn
7 Horn
8 Pac
9 Pac
10 Pac
11 Pac
12 Horn

I'm a Manny basher, I thought Bradley won the first fight, Thought he lost 3/4 to Marquez. But he didn't lose that fight against Horn.

[redmish]

It's clear that people on here are never going to agree on the scoring of the fight. What's important to me is that pacquaio was garbage. He's lost most of his handspeed, footspeed and punch output. He struggled with an average fighter who he would have destroyed 3 years ago. Great career, great fighter but its time to call it a day. I had it 115-113 for horn.

[soul_survivor]

Those of you who had Horn winning, please show your scorecards.

You may explain why you scored certain rounds the way you did.

If you had Manny, you can also share it here but I am really interested in how folks saw Horn winning.

For the record, I had it 116-112 Manny. No 10-8 rounds.

I had Pac winning 2,3,4,5,8,9,11, and twelve.

I had Horn winning 1, 6,7, and 10.

I had 5 rounds close enough to be scored either way (1,4,6,7,10) and gave 4 of them to Horn...with means I could have had it a lot wider for Manny.

Horn butted Manny twice- in the 6th and 7th-producing gashes on both sides of Pac's head.

What is interesting is that while I scored both rounds for Horn, in the 7th Manny outlanded Horn 21-12 (18-8 in powershots), so maybe I fell prey to scoring the blood instead of punches there.

There's mine.

You folks who thought Horn won, get in here and explain your cards.

Horn rounds: 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 12

Pac rounds: 3, 8, 9, 10, 11

12 for me was close enough to be a 10-10 round but I edged to Horn because he was more active and more aggressive throughout. Pac had his moments but couldnt get him a win there.

Clear rounds for Horn were 1, 2 and 4-6

Clear rounds for Pac were 3 and 8.

[Johnny2x2x]

Good arguments on both sides, which is exactly why this was a close fight.

Rewatched the fight too, see it pretty much the same way as when I watched live, but I can totally see why some people scored it for Pac. It was a close fight, of that there is little doubt. Close fights aren't robberies.