Comments Thread For: Rigondeaux: I'm Tired of Press and Everyone Saying I'm Boring

[CubanGuyNYC]

That's actually untrue! The simple fact that Guillermo Rigondeaux has already fought and beat opponents who don't engage much 'first' debunks that argument. Otherwise, how would Rigo beat those opponents who don't engage first? The answer is, Rigo actually does. However, they're subtle and not very explicit. Rigo forces his opponents to engage or make a mistake that he can capitalize on. What you could claim is that Rigo doesn't 'engage' too much, which is true. However, he does engage. It's just that he is very minimal in the things he does.

Engaging doesn't mean you have to throw punches in volumes / combinations explicitly on an opponent who isn't engaging. It can just mean feinting and forcing a reaction out of the opponent and then just landing one major / significant / damaging punch.

When Guillermo Rigondeaux broke the jaw of ****ens, he did so whilst ****ens wasn't 'engaging'. He threw his punch proactively whilst ****ens wasn't doing much to 'engage' offensively.




These are things he does do. It's just that when he does so, he isn't very explicit. It's very subtle. Thus, they can easily be missed by someone who's understanding / knowledge of boxing isn't high enough.



It's PATIENCE, not 'staring' contests. Also, he has beaten such opponents and more often than not, destroyed them. How could he do that if he wasn't 'engaging'?

Rigondeaux may throw very few punches against such opponents, but when he does land, the punches usually inflict significant damage upon the opponents. Certainly more damage than his opponents can inflict upon him.



It's not possible to 'run' inside the boxing ring and if you mean to SURVIVE, then it's far from the truth!

Guillermo Rigondeaux has never fought an opponent with the intention of purely surviving like how Andre Ward did against Sergey Kovalev. Rigondeaux generally inflicts significant damage upon his opponents. You can't do this if you're only looking to SURVIVE.



Which is something Rigo generally does. Low volume or high volume isn't much relevant to me. It's damage inflicted which matters more and is a bigger indication of 'skill'.

If one boxer throws one punch and breaks their opponent's jaw, whilst another boxer throws hundreds of punches but doesn't inflict anywhere near the same damage, that 1 punch is more significant, skillful and more impressive than those hundreds of punches.

Thus, I prefer Rigondeaux's low volume style more than Tyson Fury's or Joe Calzaghe's high volume style of boxing.

If a boxer is throwing low volume and isn't inflicting much damage upon the opposition because they are purposefully punching with extremely less power like how Ward did against Kovalev the first fight, then I'd have a problem as that's an indication of 'less skill' and 'negative boxing'. Boxing has to generally be about damage inflicted upon the opponents.



You're probably confusing 'staring' with patience.

When opponents are in their defensive shell, patience is required to penetrate it. So it may look like the boxers are only 'staring' at each other

This is a very long post. I won't break everything down the way you did, but I'll try to address all your counterpoints as succinctly as I can.

I've been a boxing fan since about 1973. I've seen every style. I appreciate each, but my favorite is "boxer-puncher," like "Sugar" Ray Leonard. I've also boxed some myself. I don't consider myself a boxing expert. Far from it. But I know enough about the sport to speak intelligently on it. I mention all this in answer to some of your assertions, which imply that maybe I don't know what I'm looking at. It's a terrible assumption.

I've followed Rigondeaux since his Olympic debut, and I've watched nearly all his professional fights. I've seen him look great, as he did against Donaire and Casey, I've seen him look weak, as with Córdoba, and I've seen him bore, as with Ramos. Against Córdoba, Rigo ran after his knockdown in the sixth round. I use the term "ran" in the boxing sense. Let's not get into semantics. As a boxing fan, you ought to know what is meant by the term as I used it. And if you've seen the fight, you should agree.

In the Rico Ramos fight, Guillermo faced a visibly scared-to-death Ramos. It took Rigondeaux six frustratingly inactive rounds to finally put the poor, quaking Ramos out of his misery. I'm sorry, but any champion worth watching would've engaged long before the sixth and impressed. Rigo chose to be "patient" -- to use your word -- to the point of boredom. That's not boxing. That's staring. Guillermo could've easily pressed the action and gotten Rico out of there much earlier, as he did Casey (KO1).

I still support Rigondeaux, I think he's a rare talent, but he lost me as a fan a few fights ago. With all due respect, you are bending over backwards to defend him. You're going into contortions making excuses for him. I understand, because you like the guy, but pretending something doesn't exist doesn't make it so.

[Mr Objecitivity]

This is a very long post. I won't break everything down the way you did, but I'll try to address all your counterpoints as succinctly as I can.

I've been a boxing fan since about 1973. I've seen every style. I appreciate each, but my favorite is "boxer-puncher," like "Sugar" Ray Leonard. I've also boxed some myself. I don't consider myself a boxing expert. Far from it. But I know enough about the sport to speak intelligently on it. I mention all this in answer to some of your assertions, which imply that maybe I don't know what I'm looking at. It's a terrible assumption.

I've followed Rigondeaux since his Olympic debut, and I've watched nearly all his professional fights. I've seen him look great, as he did against Donaire and Casey, I've seen him look weak, as with Córdoba, and I've seen him bore, as with Ramos. Against Córdoba, Rigo ran after his knockdown in the sixth round. I use the term "ran" in the boxing sense. Let's not get into semantics. As a boxing fan, you ought to know what is meant by the term as I used it. And if you've seen the fight, you should agree.

In the Rico Ramos fight, Guillermo faced a visibly scared-to-death Ramos. It took Rigondeaux six frustratingly inactive rounds to finally put the poor, quaking Ramos out of his misery. I'm sorry, but any champion worth watching would've engaged long before the sixth and impressed. Rigo chose to be "patient" -- to use your word -- to the point of boredom. That's not boxing. That's staring. Guillermo could've easily pressed the action and gotten Rico out of there much earlier, as he did Casey (KO1).

I still support Rigondeaux, I think he's a rare talent, but he lost me as a fan a few fights ago. With all due respect, you are bending over backwards to defend him. You're going into contortions making excuses for him. I understand, because you like the guy, but pretending something doesn't exist doesn't make it so.

I respect your opinion / views. However, I will have to respectfully disagree with many of them.

I haven't assumed anything about you. I just accepted the possibility that you may not be fully aware of some of the subtle things Guillermo Rigondeaux does even whilst seemingly looking stationary or as you label him, whilst 'staring'.

You might be watching boxing for a long time. However, it doesn't therefore mean you understand or are fully aware of very subtle things that very advanced boxers like Rigo do. If you don't first understand it, then there's no way you could appreciate it. You have to first understand what's happening before you appreciate it. However, you might understand it and might still find it 'boring'. Which brings us to our next point, which is entertainment and 'boredom'.

What someone finds 'boring' or 'entertaining' are purely subjective feelings / emotions. You saying you find Rigo boring is no different from you saying you don't find a particular healthy fruit tasty. Meaning, both are equally fully subjective. In other words, 'boredom' or 'distaste' of something isn't a good enough reason to be critical of something that is legit / healthy.

Provided a boxer is not performing any illegal moves, the boxer is allowed to box anyway he / she wants. Whether someone finds that particular boxer boring is totally irrelevant. Criticism isn't warranted in such a situation. Criticism is only warranted when a boxer is fouling / performing illegal moves. As far as I'm concerned, Rigo has no history of directly damaging any opponents with illegal moves in a consistent basis like other boxers. So I have no reason to criticize Rigo like those other boxers.

Just like how you finding a particular healthy fruit distasteful is not good enough of a reason to criticize that particular fruit, the same way it's not good enough of a reason to criticize a boxer only because you find that particular boxer boring. For criticism to be warranted, that fruit has to be harmful or dangerous to the human body or a particular boxer has to be performing illegal moves for criticism to be warranted against them. If a boxer is sticking to the rules of boxing and not breaking them, then whether anyone finds that boxer boring or not is irrelevant as they are boxing legitimately.

Me personally, I don't find any boxer who doesn't perform illegal moves 'boring'. I find illegal moves such as low blows, excessive clinching, headbutts and etc. boring. However, I enjoy all legal boxing moves. I enjoy all boxing styles that consist of legal moves. I enjoy certain styles more than others, but I ultimately enjoy all legal styles and don't find any of them boring. I don't even understand how one can call themselves a TRUE boxing fan or be considered one if they don't enjoy or appreciate all legal boxing styles / moves.

As for Guillermo Rigondeaux's performances against those opponents that you may have not been satisfied by, you're demanding an unrealistic expectation from Rigo.

Take into consideration that even some of the ATG knockout artists like Roy Jones Jr and Mike Tyson either failed to KO some opponents, or they took longer than usual to get the knockouts. Especially against opponents that came to survive.

When opponents come almost exclusively just to survive, becoming ultra-aggressive
doesn't usually guarantee quick knockouts.

Mike Tyson failed to KO many opponents like Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker who came to mainly survive. Mike Tyson took his longest to KO Jose Ribalta, who was another opponent that came to mainly survive. that is whilst taking into consideration Mike Tyson is a far more aggressive boxer than Rigo.

The same applies for RJJ too against many opponents that came to purely survive. Such as Eric Harding.

Even Luis Ortiz failed to KO Malik Scott, which was because Malik Scott came to just survive. Again, it's not because Luis Ortiz wasn't trying, but because it's simply very difficult to KO opponents that are looking to just survive.

So Guillermo Rigondeaux taking as long as he did of defeating certain opponents like Rico Ramos is down to them looking to just survive. Being 'scared to death' actually made it more difficult for Rigo to KO Rico Ramos. If Rico Ramos was braver and attacked, he would've been knocked out earlier. What is my point? My point is that Rigo wasn't trying any less to KO Rico Ramos than he usually does. It's just that his opponent provided less openings, thus, he himself needed to be more patient in order to create / find those openings slowly. There's not a better alternative option which Rigo could've used to KO Rico Ramos quicker than he did. Being ultra-aggressive didn't help Mike Tyson to KO Tony Tucker. So I doubt it would've helped Rigo. These are the reasons why I question your knowledge of the sport of boxing.

[CubanGuyNYC]

I respect your opinion / views. However, I will have to respectfully disagree with many of them.

I haven't assumed anything about you. I just accepted the possibility that you may not be fully aware of some of the subtle things Guillermo Rigondeaux does even whilst seemingly looking stationary or as you label him, whilst 'staring'.

You might be watching boxing for a long time. However, it doesn't therefore mean you understand or are fully aware of very subtle things that very advanced boxers like Rigo do. If you don't first understand it, then there's no way you could appreciate it. You have to first understand what's happening before you appreciate it. However, you might understand it and might still find it 'boring'. Which brings us to our next point, which is entertainment and 'boredom'.

What someone finds 'boring' or 'entertaining' are purely subjective feelings / emotions. You saying you find Rigo boring is no different from you saying you don't find a particular healthy fruit tasty. Meaning, both are equally fully subjective. In other words, 'boredom' or 'distaste' of something isn't a good enough reason to be critical of something that is legit / healthy.

Provided a boxer is not performing any illegal moves, the boxer is allowed to box anyway he / she wants. Whether someone finds that particular boxer boring is totally irrelevant. Criticism isn't warranted in such a situation. Criticism is only warranted when a boxer is fouling / performing illegal moves. As far as I'm concerned, Rigo has no history of directly damaging any opponents with illegal moves in a consistent basis like other boxers. So I have no reason to criticize Rigo like those other boxers.

Just like how you finding a particular healthy fruit distasteful is not good enough of a reason to criticize that particular fruit, the same way it's not good enough of a reason to criticize a boxer only because you find that particular boxer boring. For criticism to be warranted, that fruit has to be harmful or dangerous to the human body or a particular boxer has to be performing illegal moves for criticism to be warranted against them. If a boxer is sticking to the rules of boxing and not breaking them, then whether anyone finds that boxer boring or not is irrelevant as they are boxing legitimately.

Me personally, I don't find any boxer who doesn't perform illegal moves 'boring'. I find illegal moves such as low blows, excessive clinching, headbutts and etc. boring. However, I enjoy all legal boxing moves. I enjoy all boxing styles that consist of legal moves. I enjoy certain styles more than others, but I ultimately enjoy all legal styles and don't find any of them boring. I don't even understand how one can call themselves a TRUE boxing fan or be considered one if they don't enjoy or appreciate all legal boxing styles / moves.

As for Guillermo Rigondeaux's performances against those opponents that you may have not been satisfied by, you're demanding an unrealistic expectation from Rigo.

Take into consideration that even some of the ATG knockout artists like Roy Jones Jr and Mike Tyson either failed to KO some opponents, or they took longer than usual to get the knockouts. Especially against opponents that came to survive.

When opponents come almost exclusively just to survive, becoming ultra-aggressive
doesn't usually guarantee quick knockouts.

Mike Tyson failed to KO many opponents like Bonecrusher Smith and Tony Tucker who came to mainly survive. Mike Tyson took his longest to KO Jose Ribalta, who was another opponent that came to mainly survive. that is whilst taking into consideration Mike Tyson is a far more aggressive boxer than Rigo.

The same applies for RJJ too against many opponents that came to purely survive. Such as Eric Harding.

Even Luis Ortiz failed to KO Malik Scott, which was because Malik Scott came to just survive. Again, it's not because Luis Ortiz wasn't trying, but because it's simply very difficult to KO opponents that are looking to just survive.

So Guillermo Rigondeaux taking as long as he did of defeating certain opponents like Rico Ramos is down to them looking to just survive. Being 'scared to death' actually made it more difficult for Rigo to KO Rico Ramos. If Rico Ramos was braver and attacked, he would've been knocked out earlier. What is my point? My point is that Rigo wasn't trying any less to KO Rico Ramos than he usually does. It's just that his opponent provided less openings, thus, he himself needed to be more patient in order to create / find those openings slowly. There's not a better alternative option which Rigo could've used to KO Rico Ramos quicker than he did. Being ultra-aggressive didn't help Mike Tyson to KO Tony Tucker. So I doubt it would've helped Rigo. These are the reasons why I question your knowledge of the sport of boxing.

If you find Rigo so terribly stimulating, good for you; but you're definitely in a very small minority. I daresay there are plenty of extremely knowledgeable fans mixed in with the majority of people that find Guillermo tough to watch. It's not just a matter of taste. There are things that can objectively be understood to be boring.

I play tournament chess games that sometimes last five hours. I listen to jazz and opera, among other musical genres. I don't expect the average person to find any of those things exciting in the least. Yet, there are people in those circles that find a particular person's style, or approach, to be boring. This is coming from those "in the know." The same can be said about boxing. Some fighters are simply boring...and it's not always because some fans don't understand them. Inactivity is never stimulating or entertaining, I don't care how you want to interpret it.

Your examples of Tyson and Jones are immaterial. No one ever accused those guys of being boring. It's true that sometimes an opponent merely comes to survive, thus making a fight boring (as in Pacquiao-Clottey), but that wasn't the case in Rigo-Ramos. Guillermo took six rounds to dispatch a guy who wasn't trying to survive, but was merely quaking in his boots. I can't see any of the aforementioned fighters dreaming of letting someone like that survive into the middle rounds. And what of Córdoba? If anyone was trying to survive that fight it was Rigo.

Guillermo Rigondeaux is one of the most talented fighters I've ever seen. He's highly skilled, and has power to spare. The man is beautiful to behold when he's showing his stuff...if he deigns to show his stuff. Therein lies the rub....

[THC]

Guillermo Rigondeaux is one of the most talented fighters I've ever seen. He's highly skilled, and has power to spare. The man is beautiful to behold when he's showing his stuff...if he deigns to show his stuff. Therein lies the rub....

For me, he shows his stuff even when he's not punching. His defense is FABULOUS. A joy to watch. I have no problem with his low punch output. Just wish he'd fight more often.

[TMTForever99]

guillermo is my fav fighter right now..

p4p:
1. ward
2. rigo
3. crawford
4. spence
5. thurman

all excellent but i hope rigo fights more often. skill wise he is better than ward.

[CubanGuyNYC]

For me, he shows his stuff even when he's not punching. His defense is FABULOUS. A joy to watch. I have no problem with his low punch output. Just wish he'd fight more often.

That would be fine with me, too, but in order to show defense your opponent has to be throwing punches. Lol Rigo will often just stare at his opponent, waiting for him to do something. When the guy doesn't do anything, Rigo will just gawk. That's not boxing.

[Mr Objecitivity]

If you find Rigo so terribly stimulating, good for you; but you're definitely in a very small minority. I daresay there are plenty of extremely knowledgeable fans mixed in with the majority of people that find Guillermo tough to watch. It's not just a matter of taste. There are things that can objectively be understood to be boring.

I play tournament chess games that sometimes last five hours. I listen to jazz and opera, among other musical genres. I don't expect the average person to find any of those things exciting in the least. Yet, there are people in those circles that find a particular person's style, or approach, to be boring. This is coming from those "in the know." The same can be said about boxing. Some fighters are simply boring...and it's not always because some fans don't understand them. Inactivity is never stimulating or entertaining, I don't care how you want to interpret it.

Your examples of Tyson and Jones are immaterial. No one ever accused those guys of being boring. It's true that sometimes an opponent merely comes to survive, thus making a fight boring (as in Pacquiao-Clottey), but that wasn't the case in Rigo-Ramos. Guillermo took six rounds to dispatch a guy who wasn't trying to survive, but was merely quaking in his boots. I can't see any of the aforementioned fighters dreaming of letting someone like that survive into the middle rounds. And what of Córdoba? If anyone was trying to survive that fight it was Rigo.

Guillermo Rigondeaux is one of the most talented fighters I've ever seen. He's highly skilled, and has power to spare. The man is beautiful to behold when he's showing his stuff...if he deigns to show his stuff. Therein lies the rub....

but you're definitely in a very small minority.

Not true! I know many people who enjoy Rigo fight. His style is appreciated in many places over the world.

I daresay there are plenty of extremely knowledgeable fans mixed in with the majority of people that find Guillermo tough to watch.

Anyone who doesn't appreciate all LEGAL moves of boxing, at least to some degree isn't a 'HARDCORE' boxing fan to me.

There are things that can objectively be understood to be boring.

Objectivity by definition is something that can be verified to be true using factual data. Such as statistics, numbers, calculations and etc.

1 + 1 = 2 is objective.

A food having specific number of calories is an objective fact.

However, a food tasting good or bad is subjective.

So unless you can point out a way that 'boredom' in boxing can be objectively verified / measured, then it isn't objective but subjective.

I play tournament chess games that sometimes last five hours. I listen to jazz and opera, among other musical genres. I don't expect the average person to find any of those things exciting in the least. Yet, there are people in those circles that find a particular person's style, or approach, to be boring. This is coming from those "in the know." The same can be said about boxing. Some fighters are simply boring...and it's not always because some fans don't understand them. Inactivity is never stimulating or entertaining, I don't care how you want to interpret it.

Again, these are all subjective points. For any of those things to be objective, they have to be measurable / verifiable using factual data consisting of numbers, statistics, facts and etc.

Your examples of Tyson and Jones are immaterial. No one ever accused those guys of being boring.

Actually, they have been accused of being 'boring' on certain occasions during certain fights against certain opponents.

Roy Jones Jr was accused of being in a 'boring' fight against Eric Harding. He took 10 rounds to stop Eric Harding, which is more time than he usually takes to stop such type of opposition. Again, that was down to his opponent causing the fight to appear 'boring' because his opponent came to mainly survive without looking to win.

As far as Mike Tyson, most individuals I know would agree that he wasn't anywhere near as entertaining against Mitch Green, Bone Crusher Smith or Tony Tucker as he was against the likes of Michael Spinks, Frank Bruno and etc.

Point is, if one fighter only comes to survive and the other fighter comes to win, the fight will appear more boring than usual regardless of what the offensive boxer does.

Thus, you can't blame Rigo for being boring against Rico Ramos when the cause for the fight being boring was due to Rico Ramos coming to mainly survive. Likewise, you can't blame Roy Jones Jr for being boring against Eric Harding when the cause for that fight being boring was due to Eric Harding mainly looking to survive without looking to win.

When Rigo fights any opponent that comes to win (like Nonito Donaire), he is anything but boring, just like how Roy Jones Jr and Mike Tyson aren't boring when their opponents also come with the intention to win instead of just surviving.

Guillermo took six rounds to dispatch a guy who wasn't trying to survive, but was merely quaking in his boots.

The way I interpret that fight, is that Rico Ramos indeed did come to 'survive'.

The way I define 'survival' mode in a boxing bout is if a boxer is almost exclusively on the defensive whilst barely attacking or not attacking at all.

Rico Ramos came to survive against Rigondeaux, the same way Tony Tucker, Bonecrusher Smith and Mitch Green also came to survive against Mike Tyson, the same way Eric Harding came to survive against Roy Jones Jr. The commonality between all these boxers (Rico Ramos, Eric Harding, Tony Tucker, Bone Crusher Smith and Mitch Green) is that all of them came to survive against either Mike Tyson, Roy Jones jr and Guillermo Rigondeaux.

I can't see any of the aforementioned fighters dreaming of letting someone like that survive into the middle rounds.

Right, even though Tony Tucker (a guy who was knocked out in 2 rounds by an ex cruiserweight named Herbie Hide) survived not only up to the middle rounds, but the entire fight against Mike Tyson?

Even though Eric Harding survived 10 rounds against Roy Jones jr?

So your argument there is proven to be false!

Rico Ramos is a similar caliber of opposition as those aforementioned boxers that were opponents of Mike Tyson and Roy Jones Jr.

And what of Córdoba? If anyone was trying to survive that fight it was Rigo.

I'll admit that wasn't his best performance but I can't agree that he came to survive. He was attacking a lot so no.