Comments Thread For: Agitated Arum: HBO, Showtime Don't Own the Boxing Business!

[Eff Pandas]

If it was that simple and clear cut Arum would do it but there are obviously issues that he isn't down for and Arum is not an easy guy to deal with either he always wants it his way.

Well yea I doubt anything is simple & clean with Arum lol. He probably has altercations on a regular basis with valet parking guys.

Arum will get less money from Amazon that he would get from HBO or Showtime on a per show basis so that is inherently less money per show. So even if he gets to put on 15 shows instead of 5 a year unless he can turn a profit on enough of the shows he could end up losing money on 15 shows instead of profiting on 5 which is not something Arum has ever wanted to do.

See this is the thing I don't even get that you're talking about. If Arum is getting x dollars a year or per show from some streaming service or UniMas right now since he has a deal with them iirc & is spending x + 1 dollar on the events expenses he's running a sh^tty business in my eyes. It'd be his fault he lost money not because of the deal.

And I don't think Arum runs a sh^tty business. If any promoter is lining up show expenses + his profits better than Arum is I don't know who that guy would be & I'm not sure there is a guy I'd suggest is competitive with him at this even if I'm not in the guys fanclub.

Maybe now is different because that might be the only way forward but if he had a good option in his mind he would already dipped on HBO a while ago.

This market is still emerging as we speak. I doubt its been a option til fairly recently to start with.

And you could be right maybe nothing is going on as we speak. Maybe this will be happening as we speak a year from now, but things are trending that way across the board & the early guys in will probably be the ones to profit the most in the long term when the bigger money does come in.

But to me I think with so many players with a bankroll in this emerging market that someone if not someones are out there exploring boxing among 1000's of other potential streamable roads to go down to get every single edge in this market as they can, while they can. Cuz this is ultimately gonna be a bloodbath for everyone except one or maybe two players. Hulu is probably busto & outta business in 5-10 years if they don't win the war & I don't like their odds. Boxing is a small fish in that huger battle, but its among the sports with a loyal base thats dying for easier access to their preferred sport.

[The Gambler1981]

Well yea I doubt anything is simple & clean with Arum lol. He probably has altercations on a regular basis with valet parking guys.



See this is the thing I don't even get that you're talking about. If Arum is getting x dollars a year or per show from some streaming service or UniMas right now since he has a deal with them iirc & is spending x + 1 dollar on the events expenses he's running a sh^tty business in my eyes. It'd be his fault he lost money not because of the deal.

And I don't think Arum runs a sh^tty business. If any promoter is lining up show expenses + his profits better than Arum is I don't know who that guy would be & I'm not sure there is a guy I'd suggest is competitive with him at this even if I'm not in the guys fanclub.



This market is still emerging as we speak. I doubt its been a option til fairly recently to start with.

And you could be right maybe nothing is going on as we speak. Maybe this will be happening as we speak a year from now, but things are trending that way across the board & the early guys in will probably be the ones to profit the most in the long term when the bigger money does come in.

But to me I think with so many players with a bankroll in this emerging market that someone if not someones are out there exploring boxing among 1000's of other potential streamable roads to go down to get every single edge in this market as they can, while they can. Cuz this is ultimately gonna be a bloodbath for everyone except one or maybe two players. Hulu is probably busto & outta business in 5-10 years if they don't win the war & I don't like their odds. Boxing is a small fish in that huger battle, but its among the sports with a loyal base thats dying for easier access to their preferred sport.

Yea but a lot of Arum's guys have high minimums that is how he gets them to sign up, which means he can only use them when it is worth it to him. If not they get to sit around. So unless he can get enough revenue those guys can't be used. Plus he has sunk costs and costs just from running a business (like keeping lawyers on retainer) that have nothing to do with fights. Plus his guys have to fight someone, if no one is willing to help him out or he can;t afford to pay decent competition then his project is not really top end boxing product. Top Rank wants to be viewed as premium content not bargain basement stuff.

Arum has always been about maximizing his take, which is a fine way to run a business. If he has to start taking less than max value his model won't be quite the same.

If someone is changing business models there is a pretty big financial hit to that. If you only care about today's profits or maybe the next year's profits because Arum does think ahead to a degree. However, that is not someone who is thinking about taking risks to lose money for a period to make more down the line.

Arum is just not a risk taker, at least not a big risk taker. To me that is a huge risk, it is something that will be a difficult road because changing the landscape of boxing is not something easy to do or a cheap endeavor. It will require taking pain to come out on the other side

[Eff Pandas]

Yea but a lot of Arum's guys have high minimums that is how he gets them to sign up, which means he can only use them when it is worth it to him. If not they get to sit around. So unless he can get enough revenue those guys can't be used. Plus he has sunk costs and costs just from running a business (like keeping lawyers on retainer) that have nothing to do with fights. Plus his guys have to fight someone, if no one is willing to help him out or he can;t afford to pay decent competition then his project is not really top end boxing product. Top Rank wants to be viewed as premium content not bargain basement stuff.

Again I'd say if you are paying guys more than you can bring in with them then you're running a sh^tty business. I don't think Arum is having that happen to him very often.

Arum has always been about maximizing his take, which is a fine way to run a business. If he has to start taking less than max value his model won't be quite the same.

What promoter is trying minimize his take? Things are getting smaller all around these days.

And the first people in an emerging market are gonna likely to be the long term winners.

If someone is changing business models there is a pretty big financial hit to that. If you only care about today's profits or maybe the next year's profits because Arum does think ahead to a degree. However, that is not someone who is thinking about taking risks to lose money for a period to make more down the line.

But what risk is Arum taking thats what I'm not understanding at all? All the risk is gonna be among these streaming services & like I said in my last post thats for sure gonna be a bloodbath for everyone except one or two players probably.

So a deal with a streaming network would just be another piece of the puzzle for Top Rank's future. Like for example if Showtime came calling & wanting to work with Arum more since the Nelson beef is hurting business what you are suggesting is somehow that is a risk for Arum. I don't see it.

To me if Showtime, Netflix or some random rich guy gave Arum $2.2M to put on a boxing event of a certain quality every 3 months Arum's job as the promoter is to throw a budget together that pays all the card expenses + gives him whatever he deems is a suitable payment for himself. If he's getting 2.2M & paying out 2.4M on expenses without even paying himself I'd say he's f#cking up.

Arum is just not a risk taker, at least not a big risk taker. To me that is a huge risk, it is something that will be a difficult road because changing the landscape of boxing is not something easy to do or a cheap endeavor. It will require taking pain to come out on the other side

I definitely don't buy this. While I don't think Arum is the Elon Musk of boxing he's made bold moves in the past & he's more of an outside the box guy then given credit for. I think the Macua is a perfect example of that. I think him being the only promoter streaming his own content at one point is another example. Him signing all these foreign guys in the US market which is near notoriously xenophobic is a bold move & I actually feel its one of his mistakes, but he obviously thinks the juice will eventually be worth the squeeze some sorta way I'm assuming.

But to me this isn't a risky thing at all. To me partnering up with a Amazon or Hulu or whoever is no different then the partnering up with TruTV awhile back or partnering up with UniMas now. If it works its good for both parties, if it doesn't then Arum looks for new pastures to show his content & Amazon or Hulu looks for new content that works for them to show.

Its not that serious or much of a risk. Arum gets paid & merely has to balance his "checkbook" & if it works cool & if it doesn't he doesn't get a new balance next pay period & keeps it moving.

[jmrf4435]

Arum is just mad he can't sell **** fights to the networks anymore. They've become wiser BOBBY

[The Gambler1981]

Again I'd say if you are paying guys more than you can bring in with them then you're running a sh^tty business. I don't think Arum is having that happen to him very often.



What promoter is trying minimize his take? Things are getting smaller all around these days.

And the first people in an emerging market are gonna likely to be the long term winners.



But what risk is Arum taking thats what I'm not understanding at all? All the risk is gonna be among these streaming services & like I said in my last post thats for sure gonna be a bloodbath for everyone except one or two players probably.

So a deal with a streaming network would just be another piece of the puzzle for Top Rank's future. Like for example if Showtime came calling & wanting to work with Arum more since the Nelson beef is hurting business what you are suggesting is somehow that is a risk for Arum. I don't see it.

To me if Showtime, Netflix or some random rich guy gave Arum $2.2M to put on a boxing event of a certain quality every 3 months Arum's job as the promoter is to throw a budget together that pays all the card expenses + gives him whatever he deems is a suitable payment for himself. If he's getting 2.2M & paying out 2.4M on expenses without even paying himself I'd say he's f#cking up.



I definitely don't buy this. While I don't think Arum is the Elon Musk of boxing he's made bold moves in the past & he's more of an outside the box guy then given credit for. I think the Macua is a perfect example of that. I think him being the only promoter streaming his own content at one point is another example. Him signing all these foreign guys in the US market which is near notoriously xenophobic is a bold move & I actually feel its one of his mistakes, but he obviously thinks the juice will eventually be worth the squeeze some sorta way I'm assuming.

But to me this isn't a risky thing at all. To me partnering up with a Amazon or Hulu or whoever is no different then the partnering up with TruTV awhile back or partnering up with UniMas now. If it works its good for both parties, if it doesn't then Arum looks for new pastures to show his content & Amazon or Hulu looks for new content that works for them to show.

Its not that serious or much of a risk. Arum gets paid & merely has to balance his "checkbook" & if it works cool & if it doesn't he doesn't get a new balance next pay period & keeps it moving.

Arum is a derivative risk taker, he is not a visionary but if there is some low hanging fruit and someone willing to throw money at him he is taking it every time. Keeping his company running well and in good position has allowed him to work out some beneficial deals. He has also wore out his welcome in most every place he has ever been by taking advantage of the situation.

What he makes on a gate is a constant that is not changing. His TV revenue is X so if his guarantees are built in a world where he is getting X then getting X*.5 is not a workable scenario for profit, there is only so much hustling you can pull if the biggest part of the equation is not what it once was. So he can take a risk getting something less in hopes that that something less turns into more, which is possible with it being the way of the future but that could also be a long ways off. The risk is if he can survive long enough to get there, the same risk as PBC has/had.

If the situations were paying comparably he would already be there doing it. The math would be why he hasn't already pulled the trigger, because every other reason says he should be out on HBO. Now they might be willing to throw a quarter million at a show which would be great for a certain part of his roster, but he has that other part if all of them have nothing going on what happens when the lower end guys want to actually get to a higher level? Like I said Top Rank wants to be premium content when it comes to boxing, premium content can only be provided at a price. They can't be that if they can't put on the right fights with their best talent.

[Eff Pandas]

Arum is a derivative risk taker, he is not a visionary but if there is some low hanging fruit and someone willing to throw money at him he is taking it every time. Keeping his company running well and in good position has allowed him to work out some beneficial deals. He has also wore out his welcome in most every place he has ever been by taking advantage of the situation.

I'd argue every risk taker is a derivative risk taker in most cases. They see something that works somewhere else & converts it to something they have more experience in usually. Are the AirBnB guys not legit risk takers cuz they "invented" Uber or Lyft for houses? And there are millions of examples of this cuz everything has been done for the most part.

What he makes on a gate is a constant that is not changing. His TV revenue is X so if his guarantees are built in a world where he is getting X then getting X*.5 is not a workable scenario for profit, there is only so much hustling you can pull if the biggest part of the equation is not what it once was. So he can take a risk getting something less in hopes that that something less turns into more, which is possible with it being the way of the future but that could also be a long ways off. The risk is if he can survive long enough to get there, the same risk as PBC has/had.

If his cut is X & its a dealbreaker if he doesn't get X than I'd suggest he act accordingly with the rest of his budget for an event. So for example maybe Manny & Crawford can't be on those cards cuz their guaranteed purses makes X unattainable.

If the situations were paying comparably he would already be there doing it.

I don't see how he'd already be doing this when its still something developing. I literally copy & pasted a link from a story 12 hours ago about eports making a deal in the streaming world. This thing is straight up happening now & Steve Kim has been hinting at something for 2ish weeks with Arum & some new thing that he can't talk about yet with showing TR fights.

[The Gambler1981]

I'd argue every risk taker is a derivative risk taker in most cases. They see something that works somewhere else & converts it to something they have more experience in usually. Are the AirBnB guys not legit risk takers cuz they "invented" Uber or Lyft for houses? And there are millions of examples of this cuz everything has been done for the most part.



If his cut is X & its a dealbreaker if he doesn't get X than I'd suggest he act accordingly with the rest of his budget for an event. So for example maybe Manny & Crawford can't be on those cards cuz their guaranteed purses makes X unattainable.



I don't see how he'd already be doing this when its still something developing. I literally copy & pasted a link from a story 12 hours ago about eports making a deal in the streaming world. This thing is straight up happening now & Steve Kim has been hinting at something for 2ish weeks with Arum & some new thing that he can't talk about yet with showing TR fights.

If the money was right he would be on board period, he hates HBO and he has nowhere else to go. I am not saying a deal can't be made but Arum says wildly optimistic stuff often and Steve Kim eats that stuff up. Like I said I will believe it when I see it, because Arum will say whatever.

Is a company going to want to deal with Arum if they can't get access to his top shelf talent? How much are prospect fights worth without top flight fights in boxing? If Arum can only pull so much money out of an event can he do things like he has in the past? Is he willing to sell his library of fights that does him no good really? And what value is put on that? Is that able to make up some of the difference or all the difference or is it merely a sweetener?

There is minor risk and major risk taking. Arum will do the previous but please name me a time when he lead the way with something that would greatly alter his business? Getting into boxing in the first place, that is probably the biggest risk he took in business? That is not an old man sort of move either to be pushing the envelope unless he has little to no risk. I don't see how he is allowed to have low risk in that sort of situation he has to take on some decent risks or a deal won't be made someone else is always out there to work with like Esports.

[HAMMER77777]

I'd argue NCAA football doesn't even count as its more of the NFL's farm system, or one could even call it amateur football & not a pro sport at all thats not necessarily trying to or should be trying to maximize revenue & profits.

Fair point. Schools do Profit, though.

[Eff Pandas]

If the money was right he would be on board period, he hates HBO and he has nowhere else to go. I am not saying a deal can't be made but Arum says wildly optimistic stuff often and Steve Kim eats that stuff up. Like I said I will believe it when I see it, because Arum will say whatever.

Well obviously its talk right now & maybe talk that goes nowhere I don't disagree with you there. I'm only talking about this in the context of Arum cuz Arum seems like the perfect guinea pig for this right now of the major players in boxing.

So I'm not so much invested in Arum being the first guy in boxing to get a respectable long term streaming deal as I'm invested in someone doing it & Arum just being the most likely guy at this exact moment. And I don't agree Arum isn't a guy who's unwilling to try out new things.

Is a company going to want to deal with Arum if they can't get access to his top shelf talent?

Thats a good question.

I imagine it would depend on the streaming service & what they think would hold the most appeal to their subscribers.

I think a lot of things have potential here. Like I'd even go so far as a streaming network could sign up the rights for Shakur Stevenson. And thats it just Stevenson. Or just a bunch of the up & coming guys like Shakur. There all sorts of options here & there are all sorts of budgets one could imagine fitting for specific fights or fighters.

How much are prospect fights worth without top flight fights in boxing?

Well for sure less, but idk. Depends, but I'm sure all sorts of different deals in theory could be reached for just the entire TR roster to guys within a certain agreed upon budgetary ranges all the way down to a specific fighter.

If Arum can only pull so much money out of an event can he do things like he has in the past?

That seems like something dealt with via whatever the $ ends up being. His demands for how much he needs should have this including & it doesn't even necessarily need to be any of the other sides business how much Bob would take. He gets x million & he's talking y of that x million. Everything else is balancing the checkbook after that & its a profit or overdraft at Bob's competence or incompetence with a particular show or fight.

Is he willing to sell his library of fights that does him no good really?

How would that not be worth it? I mean beyond him getting what he feels is the value of his library?

If he deems his library is worth $20M (just pulling a number out of my ass) for full rights or $20M (again just a number I'm pulling from nowhere) for a agreed on period of time & the streaming service is down to pay $20M for the library for full or temporary rights then why wouldn't that be good for Arum?

And what value is put on that?

Thats for Arum to know & the streaming service to find out I'd imagine

Is that able to make up some of the difference or all the difference or is it merely a sweetener?

Could be either or I'd imagine.

Matter of fact if Bob is legit talking to someone right now it wouldn't surprise me if he's talking to competitors to to try to drive up his price who knows. I mean this is the wild wild west of streaming still & maxing out your upside if you are approached to help set a price moving forward is key to making a better ROI over the life of the bloodbath portion of these streaming networks figuring out whos going be running things & who's having a going out of business sale.

There is minor risk and major risk taking. Arum will do the previous but please name me a time when he lead the way with something that would greatly alter his business?

I'm hardly the guy to give you or anyone else the history of TR. But my main disagreement with you on this is I don't see this as ANY RISK. If there is a deal to me its not unlike the TruTV deal. It works for all parties & the deal is successful & continues or it doesn't & the deal ends. Theres nothing game changer for Arum or any promoter really. Its just a different market thats doing the same thing the old market for boxing was doing.

To make an example it'd be like having a radio show when TV's were just coming out. Lets say you are a fairly successful radio show guy. Radio station is paying you nice. TV gets invented & they are scooping up cats doing successful radio shows. They are wanna give you some money to do a TV show now. You see this as the future of entertainment. And if its not or if you are too ugly for TV or just don't transition over to TV you can always fall back to radio. Whats the risk taking exactly? Radio station was paying you previously. Now a TV station is paying you. Hell maybe they are super cool & will let you keep the radio show + do the TV show so now you just got multiple streams of income + are getting out to a broader number of people now. You can even hype your TV show on the radio show & hype the radio show on the TV show.

Thats how I see this more or less.

That is not an old man sort of move either to be pushing the envelope unless he has little to no risk.

LOL I seriously don't get all the risk you see here brother. And I keep failing to see how a deal with someone showing content off of TV is any different than a deal with someone showing content on TV. Its the same thing. There is just more ability for people to see your product off of TV cuz they can watch your fights from your TV, your phone, your tablet & your computer & whatever gets invented next to watch stuff from.

And like I said Bob was the first promoter to throw content on his own website when you could barely navigate some of these other major promoters websites. He might be old, but he either isn't THAT old or he takes advince from younger cats who got a good take on new & emerging areas where money can & will be made & Bob knows enough to take those opportunities.

[HAMMER77777]

I still don't get how Arum accepting x dollars to put on a HBO, TruTV or UniMas show is any different then him accepting x dollars to put on a Hulu, Amazon or FB card. I don't understand where the risk is for Arum.



Well if boxing has overpriced itself to the point of near extinction or some weird debate like that fair enough I suppose, but if something doesn't make more money then it spends I'd say a market correction is in store sooner or later for that specific thing.

I mean the whole purpose of any sporting event or season of a sport is to ultimately make a profit at the end of the event or season. If you can't do that how the f#ck are you even in business? Is Arum & other promoters a charity or non-profit?



I think getting the names together isn't even the biggest problem necessarily. I think the bigger problem is getting people to use said app or streaming service. I'm not sure the WWE or Fight Pass have made money yet & they've both been around a few years now. One of the problems with boxing is its average viewer thinks watching anything on your smartphones is the devil & more importantly hard to do. One of the problems facing boxing today is actually exposing itself to a younger audience to create new old people who complain about everything in another 20-30 years.

Meanwhile if you can get a Hulu or Amazon to throw you $15M to throw together 4 cards ($3.75M per event) a year thats already a better budget per card than HBO is giving guys & 4 big shows for a promoter these days is HUGE with the lack of dates. And Arum isn't taking any risk if these deals are working out like HBO does things that I can see. Hell he gots his own announcing team & graphics & all that sh^t already. They are good to go.

Well, thats me. Call me old school, but I dont have a smartphone, and even if I did, I would have zero interest in staring at a small as screen like that. I like Watching Boxing on my big TV. I do have a laptop computer, but I only Stream PPV's, because Im not really technologically oriented, and if The Other Fights are avialable on some or the other channel (I dont care if its on HBO, SHO, ESPN, or food network for all I care), its just so much easier to sit in front of the big screen and tune to a channel, then to try and mess around on my computer trying to Watch things. So whatever Streaming system they invision doing in the future, I hope there's some analog, cord-based version for us old folks around too.