Comments Thread For: Judge Rules Against Golden Boy in Its Lawsuit Against Al Haymon

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  • snoopymiller
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    #331
    Originally posted by OnePunch
    well I dont think that part of the model is flawed. You seem to think that the Telemundo / ShoBox level fights are a joke, but they are an integral part of fighter development. They are pretty much the same as AAA baseball. They feature alot of good mid-level guys and developing talent on their way to "the bigs".

    What you are asking is where an alternate revenue stream can be found that would fill HBOs void. I do not think that source exists. Like I said before, Haymons seed money wont last forever, and I do not believe he will get some magical multi billion content deal. Zero believes he will. And maybe he's right. I dont know. But I doubt it. Once you devalue your content to zero, its somewhat hard to convince someone that its worth billions. But again, purely speculation.......
    I dont think that Telemundo/SHOBOX is a joke persay but to keep putting on break even shows in the hope of getting HBO dwindling dollars seems very LIMITING. Those "bigs" are shrinking fast and everyone can see this.

    And yes you are correct... an alternative to fill the HBO void doesn't exist. That would mean that somebody would have to create it... Ala PBC.

    I don't think in 2018 PBC will get a huge deal with any network. But if he's able to get an average of $500k per show (at the low end) that wouldn't be a bad thing...

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    • OnePunch
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      #332
      Originally posted by snoopymiller
      I dont think that Telemundo/SHOBOX is a joke persay but to keep putting on break even shows in the hope of getting HBO dwindling dollars seems very LIMITING. Those "bigs" are shrinking fast and everyone can see this.

      And yes you are correct... an alternative to fill the HBO void doesn't exist. That would mean that somebody would have to create it... Ala PBC.

      I don't think in 2018 PBC will get a huge deal with any network. But if he's able to get an average of $500k per show (at the low end) that wouldn't be a bad thing...
      I agree 100% that its a bad strategy, considering where we are at the moment. 5 or 10 years ago though it was probably reasonable.

      Perhaps HBO will announce a revitalized commitment to boxing, with $100 million budget in 2018. And perhaps Jessica Alba will call me up and say "Netflix and chill?" as well...............

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      • snoopymiller
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        #333
        Originally posted by OnePunch
        I agree 100% that its a bad strategy, considering where we are at the moment. 5 or 10 years ago though it was probably reasonable.

        Perhaps HBO will announce a revitalized commitment to boxing, with $100 million budget in 2018. And perhaps Jessica Alba will call me up and say "Netflix and chill?" as well...............
        Lol... HBO will NEVER increase their boxing budget again.

        Their ratings continue to slide and their ROI on boxing is razor thin compared to literally everything else they put on.

        PBC is set to be the prime brand in boxing... I think Haymon has burned through about $200M at most which leaves him with at least $385M left. If he can get $500k avg per event to start in 2018 this would be a $800k swing since he wouldn't have to pay for production and time buy.

        Not a grandslam but definitely a triple.

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        • OnePunch
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          #334
          Originally posted by snoopymiller
          Lol... HBO will NEVER increase their boxing budget again.

          Their ratings continue to slide and their ROI on boxing is razor thin compared to literally everything else they put on.

          PBC is set to be the prime brand in boxing... I think Haymon has burned through about $200M at most which leaves him with at least $385M left. If he can get $500k avg per event to start in 2018 this would be a $800k swing since he wouldn't have to pay for production and time buy.

          Not a grandslam but definitely a triple.
          the Waddell statements that people were analyzing a few months back think he went through quite a bit more, based on the current Fund valuations. But I never got my Series 7 so digging deep into those statements is a bit outside my wheelhouse.

          That being said, he did buy a Lear and a G4 (or maybe a G5 I dont remember), and the acquisition costs and ongoing overhead on those babies aint cheap lol

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          • snoopymiller
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            #335
            Originally posted by OnePunch
            the Waddell statements that people were analyzing a few months back think he went through quite a bit more, based on the current Fund valuations. But I never got my Series 7 so digging deep into those statements is a bit outside my wheelhouse.

            That being said, he did buy a Lear and a G4 (or maybe a G5 I dont remember), and the acquisition costs and ongoing overhead on those babies aint cheap lol
            Those statements could mean anything but if we base the guesstimation of his burn rate based on time buy costs (which have been publicly disclosed), purses, production estimates, marketing costs, and the number of events... $200 million for 2 years seems tops.

            The main thing is getting an average of $500k per show to start in 2018. From what I hear Spike pays them more than that. Do you think that number is unreasonable?
            Last edited by snoopymiller; 01-30-2017, 08:30 PM.

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            • OnePunch
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              #336
              Originally posted by snoopymiller
              Those statements could mean anything but if we base the guesstimation of his burn rate based on time buy costs (which have been publicly disclosed), purses, production estimates, marketing costs, and the number of events... $200 million for 2 years seems tops.

              The main thing is getting an average of $500k per show to start in 2018. From what I hear Spike pays them more than that. Do you think that number is unreasonable?
              I dont necessarily think that $500k per show would be an outrageous amount for a Spike type network to spend. The REAL issue would be how many shows they would commit to on an annual basis. 8 or 10 shows per year isnt anywhere near enough to keep Haymons roster active, even factoring in Showtime's commitment.

              Unless they were willing to buy around 36-42 shows per year, I dont see how it would be enough to not only keep his current guys busy, but to expand as well. So if you take the $500k per show, add in production expenses, etc, it would be somewhere around $30-35 million that they would have to be willing to pony up each year. Maybe they would spend that, maybe not. Its certainly not outside the realm of possibilities. Spike was spending quite a bit more for UFC, but then again UFC delivers in that key 18-34 demo.....

              But that kind of deal would still only fill a certain need, for haymons low to mid-level guys. You cant put a Keith Thurman or a Danny Garcia, or a Leo Santa Cruz on shows with a $500k budget. So he still would have a shortfall for those higher end cards.....
              Last edited by OnePunch; 01-30-2017, 09:30 PM.

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              • jjsmyth87
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                #337
                Originally posted by original zero
                But your opinion was never based on the facts. Which is why you've always been wrong even though the facts haven't changed.

                Haymon isn't doing what you think he's doing. What you're imagining he's doing WOULD be a violation, but he isn't doing what you imagined. You made it up.

                In your head, Haymon decides what to pay the fighters and keeps the money that is left over. That would be a violation. But that isn't what he's doing. It's just a delusion you created.
                Then who decides how much the fighter will get paid if the fighter is not contractually bound to any promoter. The promoter makes a flat rate for each fight and haymon sets the purses and everything else just like a promoter would.

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                • OnePunch
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                  #338
                  Originally posted by jjsmyth87
                  Then who decides how much the fighter will get paid if the fighter is not contractually bound to any promoter. The promoter makes a flat rate for each fight and haymon sets the purses and everything else just like a promoter would.
                  Dont you know? The purse fairy will float down from Mt Olympus on the back of a unicorn and whisper the numbers into Dibellas ear while he sleeps. Everyone will agree, and they all will run arms outstretched towards each other in slow motion through a field of sunflowers.

                  But seriously, in a normal negotiation, the manager would negotiate with the promoter to get the most money he can get for his fighter. In Haymon World, the promoter is his employee, and he tells the promoter what the purse budget is for the event, at which point then I guess he negotiates with the promoter using the number he just gave him himself. I wonder if he ever gets himself to raise his own number lol

                  And alot of people see no problem whatsoever with this model lol
                  Last edited by OnePunch; 01-30-2017, 11:03 PM.

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                  • jjsmyth87
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                    #339
                    Originally posted by snoopymiller
                    Still offering no alternative...

                    At least offer something, anything other than just pure criticism of the Haymon model.
                    Haymons model would work if he had just put on the best cards and had his fighters fight tough exciting fights like he is finally starting to do. The main question is if it's too little too late because the amount of cards lined up are way less than last year. If the court documents from his Waddell reed lawsuit are any indication, pbc is on its last legs, and networks aren't going to buy his product en masse like he had envisioned. The perfect alternative solution is to take haymons business model and put bob arum at the helm and watch boxing take off. If only bob arum could have been the one to secure hundreds of millions of investors money. Considering arum graduated cum laude at Harvard business school, maybe arum just knows the model isn't sustainable no matter what. Hopefully time will tell

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                    • jjsmyth87
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                      #340
                      Originally posted by OnePunch
                      Dont you know? The purse fairy will float down from Mt Olympus on the back of a unicorn and whisper the numbers into Dibellas ear while he sleeps. Everyone will agree, and they all will run arms outstretched towards each other in slow motion through a field of sunflowers.

                      But seriously, in a normal negotiation, the manager would negotiate with the promoter to get the most money he can get for his fighter. In Haymon World, the promoter is his employee, and he tells the promoter what the purse budget is for the event, at which point then I guess he negotiates with the promoter using the number he just gave him himself. I wonder if he ever gets himself to raise his own number lol

                      And alot of people see no problem whatsoever with this model lol
                      Exactly, pbc is the one putting these events on using investors money and therefore is collecting all proceeds and they are paying the promoter a flat fee for handling the logistics of the event

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