Jack Dempsey vs Today's Heavyweights

[Fury4daWIN]

Jack looks faster to me, and he was more explosive.

Jack beat much bigger guys than Kov at HW. There's your common sense.

He also had a bob and weave style to get inside.

Kovalev's style wouldn't be suited to the HW division. He's more of a boxer than a fighter.

You're welcome to substitute anyone LHW of your choice if Kovalev doesn't float your boat. My point is there are no LHWs or even Cruiserweights (besides Usyk, who's physically larger than Dempsey) whom I'd pick to dominate the heavyweight division, for the simple fact that they'd be at too much of a physical disadvantage for any stylistic or skill based factors to overcome.

Reason I picked Kovalev to represent my point was first his physical dimensions, which are similar to Dempsey's. Secondly his brutal punching power and go for the finish mentality. Third his high level of skill in landing his shots and great understanding of distance. Fourth the fact that he's sparred with and held his own against larger opponents.

He's the closest we have to a Dempsey type fighter in the modern age, and therefore gives us a reasonable idea of what Dempsey might be like if he fought today.

I'm just trying to get some reasonable perspective to the debate since it's easy to forget how small Dempsey would be in the current heavyweight division.

Ultimately we're still dealing with hypotheticals of course. But ones with a bit less distortion in them I hope.

I don't know. Maybe it would have been thoretically possible, but he would never have made SMW.

I don't suggest he could have made SMW. Not without seriously draining himself anyway.

[robertzimmerman]

So it's ignorant to have a different opinion?. I'm a realist, I don't care about ancient newspaper reports and myths passed down from generations. You nostalgic fans are the real bigots because you're unwilling to listen to different views and you're stuck in your dogmatic ways.

I'm bringing out the best in Ray not like wacky Elroy who just degraded the older generation sometimes just for the sake of it. & YES Floyd Mayweather is better than Sugar Ray Robinson if you take into account the FOOTAGE available and not just hear say.

Having a different opinion to someone is fine if it's based on logic.

My opinions are objective, and they're based on facts and logic.


Saying that Dempsey would get pulverised by today's HW's, and using Tyson losing to Lewis as some sort of evidence, is completely ignorant.

[Fury4daWIN]

We're looking hypothetically at him fighting as a HW.

Saying that HW's today are faster than Dempsey based on Olympic running records, is madness.

I agree and I never said that, so I'm not sure what relevance it has. But there are several HWs with comparable if not better hand speed than Dempsey. Haye and Parker for starters.

I didn't say they were the same, I said they had similarities.

Height, reach, a bob and weave style to get inside the reach of bigger guys.

Of course, the point I was making was that skills and style can overcome size.

Look at today's top 15 HW's, and then come back and tell me that Jack couldn't have beaten some of them.

And my point is that Dempsey's skills and style wouldn't be enough to overcome his massive physical disadvantages. They would be in the case of Tyson, first off because Tyson had considerably more skill and natural ability than Dempsey, and secondly the physical difference between himself and his opponents wasn't as great.

[ShoulderRoll]

Bobbing and weaving would get you leaned on today. Referees are too lenient on fighters who use such tactics.

Here's Dempsey sparring against the 6'6" Big Bill Tate.

He has no problem with getting clinched and leaned on, just takes it in stride and keeps motoring.

[robertzimmerman]

You're welcome to substitute anyone LHW of your choice if Kovalev doesn't float your boat. My point is there are no LHWs or even Cruiserweights (besides Usyk, who's physically larger than Dempsey) whom I'd pick to dominate the heavyweight division, for the simple fact that they'd be at too much of a physical disadvantage for any stylistic or skill based factors to overcome.

Reason I picked Kovalev to represent my point was first his physical dimensions, which are similar to Dempsey's. Secondly his brutal punching power and go for the finish mentality. Third his high level of skill in landing his shots and great understanding of distance. Fourth the fact that he's sparred with and held his own against larger opponents.

He's the closest we have to a Dempsey type fighter in the modern age, and therefore gives us a reasonable idea of what Dempsey might be like if he fought today.

I'm just trying to get some reasonable perspective to the debate since it's easy to forget how small Dempsey would be in the current heavyweight division.

Ultimately we're still dealing with hypotheticals of course. But ones with a bit less distortion in them I hope.

I don't suggest he could have made SMW. Not without seriously draining himself anyway.

First off, I don't think for one second that Dempsey could have dominated HW today. But again: His style and attributes would be more suited to the HW division than Kovalev. It's as simple as that.

Kovalev doesn't give us an idea of how Jack would do at HW today, because apart from being physically similar, they are completely different.

Again: Kovalev could not get inside of a bigger guys reach like Dempsey could. And in my opinion, he wasn't as fast and he didn't hit as hard.

You're only looking at their height, reach and weight.

It tells us nothing.

Styles make fights.

Joe Frazier wasn't as big as Kovalev, and he only weighed just over 200 pounds in his first fight against Ali. That was only about 10 pounds heavier than some of Kovalev's recorded fight night weights. And as we know: there's also CW's out there who were bigger than what Joe was.

[REMOVE SHARK 55]

An outstanding post Ray.

A real pleasure to read.

Some of these guys are so ignorant.

Would Mike get pulverised?

How about the version of Roy Jones who fought John Ruiz? That version of Roy could have beaten SOME of today's HW's.

Joe Frazier could have beaten SOME of today's HW's.

Stop being ignorant.

Jack would not get pulverised by EVERY HW today.

He would never EVER hold a title from one of the sanctioning bodies in this day & age. He could quite possibly beat some HW's but Wilder, Fury, Wladimir and Joshua stop him. The ELITE super HWs. He could never exchange punches with these guys.

Willard, Firpo, all these HW's that would pass as Super now technically were GARBAGE. People make fun of Wilders windmilling but all you have to do is type in Dempsey vs Willard/Firpo in and watch it.

[robertzimmerman]

I agree and I never said that, so I'm not sure what relevance it has. But there are several HWs with comparable if not better hand speed than Dempsey. Haye and Parker for starters.

And my point is that Dempsey's skills and style wouldn't be enough to overcome his massive physical disadvantages. They would be in the case of Tyson, first off because Tyson had considerably more skill and natural ability than Dempsey, and secondly the physical difference between himself and his opponents wasn't as great.

I agree with almost everything you've said, but I believe that Jack could still have beaten some of today's top 15 guys.

What do you mean the physical difference between his opponents wasn't as great?

In terms of what?

Strength?

Weight?

Mike was smaller, with less reach.

I believe Jack was very strong.

[robertzimmerman]

He would never EVER hold a title from one of the sanctioning bodies in this day & age. He could quite possibly beat some HW's but Wilder, Fury, Wladimir and Joshua stop him. The ELITE super HWs. He could never exchange punches with these guys.

Willard, Firpo, all these HW's that would pass as Super now technically were GARBAGE. People make fun of Wilders windmilling but all you have to do is type in Dempsey vs Willard/Firpo in and watch it.

I would fancy Fury, but as yet, Joshua and Wilder haven't shown me anything.

Wilder is crude at times. He really lacks technique. I definitely think Jack could have gotten inside.

[REMOVE SHARK 55]

" YES Floyd Mayweather is better than Sugar Ray Robinson if you take into account the FOOTAGE available and not just hear say"...

There is plenty of video of Sugar Ray available to compare to Floyd.
The biggest difference is that Sugar could knock out ATG with either hand and was not afraid to mix it up when the fight was competitive. Watching Floyd run from Pacman was embarrassing to me. The fear in his eyes during the first Maidana bout was obvious!
I'm not referring he is a coward because pro boxers aren't cowardice. However he is under sized against Sugar, he has no where near the experience especially at 147, I think he has 12 bouts as a welter! His 49-0 record is impressive but Sugar went 80-0 TWICE!!!.
Sugar destroys Floyd and theres plenty of other ATG welters that defeat him too.

Find the video's, study the results of his punches than look at Floyds results. Watch the combination punching differences, Robinson set his power shots up with other punches, movement,
deceptiveness! Floyd doesn't have any power!!!

Mayweather 5'7" 147
Sugar Ray 5'11" 147

study & learn.

Power goes to Sugar Ray seeing as he went beyond Welterweight. That can't be disputed. Remember the term 'p4p' was coined especially for SRR & it enabled writers at the time to compare him skill wise to men campaigning in heavier weight classes. So this isn't about Welter Ray vs Welter Floyd. This is a head to head skill vs skill comparison.

SRR wasn't as calculated as Floyd was inside the ring. Wasn't as accurate. SRR floated likes a butterfly but Floyd most definitely has the better feet. Less running more pivoting. Floyd also fought more World Class competition throughout his career. SRR went 80-0 twice but did he fight at a consistent World class level like Floyd did? Over 50% of Floyds bouts were World Championship bouts. Floyd was so good barring Castillo & Maidana he fought at his own pace. He's the best ring general I've seen for someone lacking 1 punch KO power. At the lower weights he carried the KO power you crave for.

Fear is a normal emotion Ray. When Mike Tyson was crying on Teddy Atlas's shoulder before his fights why was that exactly?

[REMOVE SHARK 55]

Having a different opinion to someone is fine if it's based on logic.

My opinions are objective, and they're based on facts and logic.


Saying that Dempsey would get pulverised by today's HW's, and using Tyson losing to Lewis as some sort of evidence, is completely ignorant.

I dropped a **** load of knowledge you've just knit picked. Lewis = Gold, Joshua = Gold, Wladimir = Gold even Deontay = Bronze. They possess more talent in their pinkys than all of the 'super' hws from post World War 1 and pre World War 2 combined. They all know how to gauge distance and use their size to their advantage. Something Dempseys foes struggled to grasp.

I would fancy Fury, but as yet, Joshua and Wilder haven't shown me anything.

Wilder is crude at times. He really lacks technique. I definitely think Jack could have gotten inside.

Crude??? That whole era was crude. They were essentially the beginning (on film). Please watch Willard vs Dempsey. If Wilder is crude then my god that era was cringe worthy.