Bruce Lee vs PBF aka "Money" Mayweather: Who wins?

[Ganondorf]

Floyd by KO if prime like 140 or below.

[LoadedWraps]

Well in a boxing match forget it. Most martial arts strikes dont even work with boxing gloves.

Mayweather's problem is that he would not know how to deal with kicks: Now before people go all wu wu about this lets take real data to work with.

Bill Superfoot Wallace had a round kick that was devistating, that is a circular roundhouse blow but delivered with the front leg. heres the thing: You had some pretty fair kickboxers around, including guys who had been full contact karate champs, second teir boxers like Therault, etc...Nobody ever beat Wallace in the ring. they could not get past his kick.

If you ever fought a boxer (I have) you also know that when you set up like you are going to box, it is really easy to catch them in the groin with a front snap kick. Actually, when they come in you can always use the legs to control distance and catch them.

My point is that Mayweather would have to crib a response to the kicks. Bruce had great power for his size for sure and was very fast with the kicks. It would be a problem for Money May.

If he tries to fight off the back foot Lee can attack his front leg and knee, if he tries to bounce and move, Lee had very quick feet. I don't frankly see a reason why Lee lets a known boxer get into punching range.

See heres the thing: again, no gloves... Lee sets up a backfist right? when Mayweather reacts to that strike, by just moving back, to the side, or even slipping it, all Lee has to do is follow up with a kick. lee threw his side kick like a lot of fighters for the time did (not saying Lee was a fighter), He did not telegraph the blow.

Finally: Lee had some tools that were deadly. Its not just eye gouging, but Lee could set that strike up so if he threw a lead, and you moved just back in a straight path, he would extend the fingers and make it a finger jab. I think May could avoid some of that, but if he misjudges range just once, he loses his eyesight for a bit.

Of course May could catch him with a great accurate punch. If I were Lee though I would never give him a chance.

Philosophically people are correct that Lee was not a fighter. It was not his style to fight in a match that did not further his own understanding. People in this generation have forgotten what martial arts are about with respect to fighting. You don't prolong a fight, or get into a contest of speed, strength or will. You end it as soon as possible. That is what Lee and others were practicing to do. If you watch Lee he had a speed of movement that was crazy. Many people who trained with him say his size was immaterial because of the force he generated.

Not saying I agree with all these sentiments but I would really wonder how Mayweather, with no experience, could deal with a kick.

You make many great points.

I definitely agree that creating force efficiently renders size differences moot, especially if the bigger guy isn't as skilled a fighter or a fighter at all.

I can relate to much of this because I am short, I am a boxer, and I also have been trained beyond boxing, in the military, self defense at a high level (spec ops). While I would definitely rely on my boxing abilities and experience the most, I feel quite comfortable taking my boxing centric approach against someone who is an MMA fighter or pretty much anyone, mainly because of this: while I don't have a large history of bar / street fights, I was placed in a situation in the military where we had to fight 1v1 and either literally render them incapacitated or by landing a simulated incapacitating strike with a rubber knife (the focus was knife fighting by and large here) and I, having some boxing in me at the time, pretty much was never beaten during this exercise. I held my blade in the off hand and got into a low stance and dominated people with my jab. If I didn't stop you with my jabs and check hooks and you either tried a takedown or similar I would use knife strikes bringing my right hand with the speed of a punch upon closing the distance and it was unavoidable. We are falling to the ground with you taking me down but I'll have opened your gut in the process.

So while a pure boxer will be at a disadvantage on paper, it doesn't take much to learn some proper take down defense, and learn some complimentary skills that in the event of something crazy happening, you have more tools to react with. I'm very comfortable sparring mma fighters, once they realize I can't be taken down easily everything changes because mma fighters really think once they put their hands on you it's over and they don't even come with a plan B.

I do respect your take on that kickboxer, and I've never sparred an elite kickboxer, but I've never sparred a low level mma fighter or even seen footage of a kick I can't slip, in my mind. I look at it like this, if I can slip fast shoeshine punches of a disciplined boxer, how can I not slip a slower, longer kick? You need to raise your leg all the way up, if I even see your hips twitch in the manner a person leverages their core, I'm reacting.

[blue_dolphin]

Bruce probably had a glass chin. never know.

[hugh grant]

Bruce probably had a glass chin. never know.

Don't worry about less chin. Beating p people wwasnt hard for bruce that's all you need to know

[W1LL]

Depends how much Floyd is allowed to limit/nullify Bruce Lee's advantages, by coming up with a list of his own bullchit rules. Basically what he's done his whole career. In a straight one on one, anything goes, Bruce Lee would bust his cheeks.

[billeau2]

You make many great points.

I definitely agree that creating force efficiently renders size differences moot, especially if the bigger guy isn't as skilled a fighter or a fighter at all.

I can relate to much of this because I am short, I am a boxer, and I also have been trained beyond boxing, in the military, self defense at a high level (spec ops). While I would definitely rely on my boxing abilities and experience the most, I feel quite comfortable taking my boxing centric approach against someone who is an MMA fighter or pretty much anyone, mainly because of this: while I don't have a large history of bar / street fights, I was placed in a situation in the military where we had to fight 1v1 and either literally render them incapacitated or by landing a simulated incapacitating strike with a rubber knife (the focus was knife fighting by and large here) and I, having some boxing in me at the time, pretty much was never beaten during this exercise. I held my blade in the off hand and got into a low stance and dominated people with my jab. If I didn't stop you with my jabs and check hooks and you either tried a takedown or similar I would use knife strikes bringing my right hand with the speed of a punch upon closing the distance and it was unavoidable. We are falling to the ground with you taking me down but I'll have opened your gut in the process.

So while a pure boxer will be at a disadvantage on paper, it doesn't take much to learn some proper take down defense, and learn some complimentary skills that in the event of something crazy happening, you have more tools to react with. I'm very comfortable sparring mma fighters, once they realize I can't be taken down easily everything changes because mma fighters really think once they put their hands on you it's over and they don't even come with a plan B.

I do respect your take on that kickboxer, and I've never sparred an elite kickboxer, but I've never sparred a low level mma fighter or even seen footage of a kick I can't slip, in my mind. I look at it like this, if I can slip fast shoeshine punches of a disciplined boxer, how can I not slip a slower, longer kick? You need to raise your leg all the way up, if I even see your hips twitch in the manner a person leverages their core, I'm reacting.

Wow! A lot of good info here! Ill respond generally but won't miss some of the points you made because they are relevant to the discussion.

Regarding knife defenses and attacks: I studied them with Ronald Duncan's top student.... Who passed two weeks ago and I have observed many others...also looked at accounts and one singular factor that makes or breaks the success is Aggression! So if you used your jab as an attack you would indeed have a good outcome. What people do that gets them killed to start with is let the brain ask them "Is this for real?" And in the interm while the brain is coming to grips with "yeah!!! get going body!!" the attack had occured.

This is why space is everything. Many knife attacks seek to get close and ambush, then drive forward while cutting. Sometimes it is a matter of inches that determine success or failure. One very good martial artist I know was taught to move the head and shoulders a certain way...he was attacked by four guys and the last guy with the knife got his throat....It missed his cateroid by a spec because he moved in the right direction when trying to evade the attack.

Ive seen smaller guys who really do generate and while I would not want to say one should depend on this, as it goes against physics, when you get hit that way... And Lee did hit hard by all accounts.

Now...regarding your experiences I always tell people, you respond the way you are trained. So the actual techniques one uses are far less important than going through the training scenarios. As you progress to real martial ability I would add that you learn to see the attack scenario as a series of distances and that determines how you respond. So the real skill in, oh...lets say disarming a knife, is knowing the angle to step off to catch the knife on the back arm, and protect the throat...from that point, there are tricks, like securing the thumb of the attacker's knife hand, but if I am at the right distance...I can punch him, break him. throw him, or what we were taught, turn the blade upon him by securing the thumb.

I actually hate kickboxing. It is a prejudice of mine. I think it debaised karate and boxing. What happened was a lot of boxers entered and would just do the minimum for kicks during a bought. Regarding kicks. Again, its how they are trained... When done properly, untelegraphed, they are hard to slip. Also, the Thai roundhouse is a virtual "get out of jail" card! Its like giving someone a giant axe handle to swing.

If you want to get an idea of an approach, an art that uses kicks very well against boxing (because it is a boxing style) and a style that Lee really liked, look at some videos of Savate, French kick boxing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfEvLG9sQfw



This vid is nice because it shows the kicking rhythm, the snapping whip like movement of the kicks and how things like the shoes are used as a weapon. Its kind if no nonsense, no affect lol.

You can see that with the movements it would be hard to deal with these kicks and time them. Not impossible by any means, but not easy. Lee kicked a lot like this actually... more so than the way Korean Kicks are done which use the body moving for the torque in a circle.

Edit: Interesting aside: While savate matches use mostly boxing cross movements (they are all over YouTube) the self Defense applications all involve kicks primarily. its that need to keep distance and use the farthest weapon the most aggressively...to train to do so.

[blue_dolphin]

Don't worry about less chin. Beating p people wwasnt hard for bruce that's all you need to know

beating people in what? movies? Floyd would put him to sleep lets be honest

[QueensburyRules]

--- Lee used to be matched against Ali.

TUE 50-0, Never!

He'd beat up another stripper for some secure private jail time rather than make scratch vs Lee or Ali.

Major League Sissy!

[LoadedWraps]

Wow! A lot of good info here! Ill respond generally but won't miss some of the points you made because they are relevant to the discussion.

Regarding knife defenses and attacks: I studied them with Ronald Duncan's top student.... Who passed two weeks ago and I have observed many others...also looked at accounts and one singular factor that makes or breaks the success is Aggression! So if you used your jab as an attack you would indeed have a good outcome. What people do that gets them killed to start with is let the brain ask them "Is this for real?" And in the interm while the brain is coming to grips with "yeah!!! get going body!!" the attack had occured.

This is why space is everything. Many knife attacks seek to get close and ambush, then drive forward while cutting. Sometimes it is a matter of inches that determine success or failure. One very good martial artist I know was taught to move the head and shoulders a certain way...he was attacked by four guys and the last guy with the knife got his throat....It missed his cateroid by a spec because he moved in the right direction when trying to evade the attack.

Ive seen smaller guys who really do generate and while I would not want to say one should depend on this, as it goes against physics, when you get hit that way... And Lee did hit hard by all accounts.

Now...regarding your experiences I always tell people, you respond the way you are trained. So the actual techniques one uses are far less important than going through the training scenarios. As you progress to real martial ability I would add that you learn to see the attack scenario as a series of distances and that determines how you respond. So the real skill in, oh...lets say disarming a knife, is knowing the angle to step off to catch the knife on the back arm, and protect the throat...from that point, there are tricks, like securing the thumb of the attacker's knife hand, but if I am at the right distance...I can punch him, break him. throw him, or what we were taught, turn the blade upon him by securing the thumb.

I actually hate kickboxing. It is a prejudice of mine. I think it debaised karate and boxing. What happened was a lot of boxers entered and would just do the minimum for kicks during a bought. Regarding kicks. Again, its how they are trained... When done properly, untelegraphed, they are hard to slip. Also, the Thai roundhouse is a virtual "get out of jail" card! Its like giving someone a giant axe handle to swing.

If you want to get an idea of an approach, an art that uses kicks very well against boxing (because it is a boxing style) and a style that Lee really liked, look at some videos of Savate, French kick boxing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UfEvLG9sQfw



This vid is nice because it shows the kicking rhythm, the snapping whip like movement of the kicks and how things like the shoes are used as a weapon. Its kind if no nonsense, no affect lol.

You can see that with the movements it would be hard to deal with these kicks and time them. Not impossible by any means, but not easy. Lee kicked a lot like this actually... more so than the way Korean Kicks are done which use the body moving for the torque in a circle.

Edit: Interesting aside: While savate matches use mostly boxing cross movements (they are all over YouTube) the self Defense applications all involve kicks primarily. its that need to keep distance and use the farthest weapon the most aggressively...to train to do so.

A lot of great stuff here billeau2!

Absolutely right about knifes, space, and physics.

I am going to check out that video etc and get back to you.

I do like savate, I don't have personal experience with it though. The only true "pure" martial art I have been disciplined in is WinG Chun, but not at a very high level, I would still fall back on my boxing in a situation for the most part.

[billeau2]

A lot of great stuff here billeau2!

Absolutely right about knifes, space, and physics.

I am going to check out that video etc and get back to you.

I do like savate, I don't have personal experience with it though. The only true "pure" martial art I have been disciplined in is WinG Chun, but not at a very high level, I would still fall back on my boxing in a situation for the most part.

Boxing is a martial art. What I don't like about Savate, and Thai Boxing...and they are totally different arts, But both suffer from a similar malady: They do not teach very sophisticated upper body movement. It is especially obvious that the head movement in both arts is lacking when compared to Western boxing. I mean the technical proficiency of a Savate Player regarding the punches is there... along with the discipline, but they stand up there with the chin and guard held high lol!

With the Thai guys, when they box they take a lot of punches, the operative mode seems, "you will hit me, but man will I hit you!" Problem is, without the kick, and elbows and with the accurate and combo punching of the boxer, the Thai guys don't transition well... then again, no boxers don't often fight Thai matches.