was Roberto Duran really that great?

[wpink1]

Panamiac...I suggest before you speak you research.....For the sakes of muting any weak arguement that I could envision one would have by saying everyone has horrible bums their first several fights...Which is true but not as far deep into their career as Duran had. I will give a high level sampling of his opposition after he became a world champion at the lightweight division, which should show just how weak most of his opposition was he faced ONCE HE BECAME champion, vs fighters like Mayweather Mosley Whitacker, Leonard who routinely stepped in with the best night in night out. Now before I do, I want to make my point clear. Duran fought great great figghters, and anyone who says different is flat out ignorant, that is not my argument, my arguement is that when people try to throw his 71-1 record around as if he was god for fighting 72 fights, I think you have to realize that the majority of those fights were vs far less quality fighters than the majority of a Leonard resume..... A lot of those fighters Duran had no business being in the same country with, much less the same ring. They were glorified sparring partners at best. Take for example the argument I hear that Leonard gets crap for facing a Larry Bonds after he fought Duran twice, benetiz, before Kalule and hearns.....Who has ever fought a stretch like that.....and wins all but one, comes back after retirement and fights Hagler no Tune up!.....then Laland, Hearns., duran,, then Norris.....My God...that is geting in the ring everytime vs top fighters......If ray had fought the bums that Duran had,,,or if mayweather had fought the bums that Duran had...he would be kicked out of boxing. Mayweather already gets ridiculed for handpicking his opponents, and he is handpicking DLH, Hatton, etc....Night in Night out... Not that Duran does not have names on his resume, but why doesnt the media judge duran the same as everyone else. Here is a sample of fighters he faced after becoming a champion.

Jose peterson 23-14-1
AlvaroRojas 3-4
Vilomar Fernandez 19-5-1
Javier Muniz 18-6-2
Bernardo Diaz 1-4
Adolfo Viruet 14-3
Ezequiel Obando 0-3

The list goes on and on.....These were fighters AFTER he became a champion. So yes duran dominated the lightweight division, no doubt about it, however when throwing the record of 70-1 around at people as if he was a god,,,Had leonard taken a fight like that even after the group of fighters he faced, had he faced a fighter with a record of 18-6 or 1-4 He would have been dismissed as cherry picker, ducking the hearns Hagler etc...talked about forever,,,But Duran does it, Duran fans never mention that most of his fights at lightweight were vs questionable oppostion vs what the Leonard, and mayweather have to face night in night out.

We already know what Leonard faced..Let me show you what mayweather faces night in night out since becoming a champ.

Genare hernandez 38-1-1
angel manfredy 25-2-1
Carlos Rios 44-2-1
Justin Juuko 33-2-1
Carlos Gerena 34-2
Gregoria Vargas 40-6-1
Emanual Augustus 22-16-4*
Diego Corrales 33-0
Carlos hernandez 33-2-1
Jesus Chavez 35-1
Jose Luis Castillo 45-4
Jose Louis Castill 46-5
Victoriano Sosa 35-2-2
Phillip Ndou 31-1
Demarcus Corley 28-2-1
Henry Bruseles 21-2-1
Artuo Gatti 39-6
Shamba Mitchell 56-4
Zab judah 34-3
Baldimir 43-9
DlH 38-4

1 fighter with a resume that he faced that comparible to the long list of bums that Duran faced routinely. This is again not to discredit Duran for his great achievement as to me he is a top 10, but you have to be honest even if your a Duran fan...his 70-1 record at lightwegiht was padded AFTER HE BECAME CHAMPION with a lot of fights that he had no business taking.

[rambov]

I'll just sum it up in one word "no"

But he was fun to watch "no mas"

[Burning Desire]

This is not even up for debate of course he is ATG one my favorite Duran fights in when he is 37 and beats Iran Barkley for World Middleweight Title one of the most amazing things i've ever seen in boxing remember this was a guy that started at Lightweight.

[Wiley Hyena]

Panamiac...I suggest before you speak you research.....For the sakes of muting any weak arguement that I could envision one would have by saying everyone has horrible bums their first several fights...Which is true but not as far deep into their career as Duran had. I will give a high level sampling of his opposition after he became a world champion at the lightweight division, which should show just how weak most of his opposition was he faced ONCE HE BECAME champion, vs fighters like Mayweather Mosley Whitacker, Leonard who routinely stepped in with the best night in night out. Now before I do, I want to make my point clear. Duran fought great great figghters, and anyone who says different is flat out ignorant, that is not my argument, my arguement is that when people try to throw his 71-1 record around as if he was god for fighting 72 fights, I think you have to realize that the majority of those fights were vs far less quality fighters than the majority of a Leonard resume..... A lot of those fighters Duran had no business being in the same country with, much less the same ring. They were glorified sparring partners at best. Take for example the argument I hear that Leonard gets crap for facing a Larry Bonds after he fought Duran twice, benetiz, before Kalule and hearns.....Who has ever fought a stretch like that.....and wins all but one, comes back after retirement and fights Hagler no Tune up!.....then Laland, Hearns., duran,, then Norris.....My God...that is geting in the ring everytime vs top fighters......If ray had fought the bums that Duran had,,,or if mayweather had fought the bums that Duran had...he would be kicked out of boxing. Mayweather already gets ridiculed for handpicking his opponents, and he is handpicking DLH, Hatton, etc....Night in Night out... Not that Duran does not have names on his resume, but why doesnt the media judge duran the same as everyone else. Here is a sample of fighters he faced after becoming a champion.

Jose peterson 23-14-1
AlvaroRojas 3-4
Vilomar Fernandez 19-5-1
Javier Muniz 18-6-2
Bernardo Diaz 1-4
Adolfo Viruet 14-3
Ezequiel Obando 0-3

The list goes on and on.....These were fighters AFTER he became a champion. So yes duran dominated the lightweight division, no doubt about it, however when throwing the record of 70-1 around at people as if he was a god,,,Had leonard taken a fight like that even after the group of fighters he faced, had he faced a fighter with a record of 18-6 or 1-4 He would have been dismissed as cherry picker, ducking the hearns Hagler etc...talked about forever,,,But Duran does it, Duran fans never mention that most of his fights at lightweight were vs questionable oppostion vs what the Leonard, and mayweather have to face night in night out.

We already know what Leonard faced..Let me show you what mayweather faces night in night out since becoming a champ.

Genare hernandez 38-1-1
angel manfredy 25-2-1
Carlos Rios 44-2-1
Justin Juuko 33-2-1
Carlos Gerena 34-2
Gregoria Vargas 40-6-1
Emanual Augustus 22-16-4*
Diego Corrales 33-0
Carlos hernandez 33-2-1
Jesus Chavez 35-1
Jose Luis Castillo 45-4
Jose Louis Castill 46-5
Victoriano Sosa 35-2-2
Phillip Ndou 31-1
Demarcus Corley 28-2-1
Henry Bruseles 21-2-1
Artuo Gatti 39-6
Shamba Mitchell 56-4
Zab judah 34-3
Baldimir 43-9
DlH 38-4

1 fighter with a resume that he faced that comparible to the long list of bums that Duran faced routinely. This is again not to discredit Duran for his great achievement as to me he is a top 10, but you have to be honest even if your a Duran fan...his 70-1 record at lightwegiht was padded AFTER HE BECAME CHAMPION with a lot of fights that he had no business taking.

Flawed analysis. Many of Floyd's opponents that you listed were just bums with padded records themselves. Bruseles for instance 21-2-1, was an overrated punching bag. Anybody that watches boxing knows that. Back in Duran's day, fighter's records were not nearly as groomed as they are today.

Furthermore, Duran had over 100 fights during his career. Mayweather had 38and retired. Much greater percentage of bums on Floyd's resume than on Duran's, IMO.

Duran >> Floyd. Absolutely no comparison.

[wpink1]

Not disagreeing that many of Floyds opponents had padded records. Notice that hte fighters I listed for Duran had "Horrible" records. Not simply bad records. Also, this is not an attempt to inflate Mayweathers resume as legendary, but my arguement is that Duran's list of opponets since he became champion has a large amount of questionable opponents, fighters who would not get title shots vs a Mayweather or Leonard or many fighters today.

Was it a different era, Yes. I agree, As Sugar Ray Robinson had a bunch of bums too, but Robinson also moved up with greater success than Duran did. Also, No knock vs Latino fighters as it think many of greater fighters are latino..Arguello, Sanchez, Curan, Chavez, Barrera, Morreles,,,however Duran just like Chavez fought a buch of fights south of the border that simply are not the quality of fights that are demanded in the states.

So my point to simplify is that Duran was great is a all time top 10, but you have to be honest in your assessment and understand that he had a very padded record of low quality opposition even after he became a champion.

[JuanDan]

I just got some new fights into
my collection. I got the one with
Roberto Duran against Tommy Herns.
My uncle keeps saying Duran was so great.
I saw the tape when Duran quit against Sugar
Ray too. Now seeing Tommy Herns knock him out
with one punch. Why do people keep saying Duran
is so great especially old people.

If want to know how good he was watch this

[Wiley Hyena]

Not disagreeing that many of Floyds opponents had padded records. Notice that hte fighters I listed for Duran had "Horrible" records. Not simply bad records. Also, this is not an attempt to inflate Mayweathers resume as legendary, but my arguement is that Duran's list of opponets since he became champion has a large amount of questionable opponents, fighters who would not get title shots vs a Mayweather or Leonard or many fighters today.

Was it a different era, Yes. I agree, As Sugar Ray Robinson had a bunch of bums too, but Robinson also moved up with greater success than Duran did. Also, No knock vs Latino fighters as it think many of greater fighters are latino..Arguello, Sanchez, Curan, Chavez, Barrera, Morreles,,,however Duran just like Chavez fought a buch of fights south of the border that simply are not the quality of fights that are demanded in the states.

So my point to simplify is that Duran was great is a all time top 10, but you have to be honest in your assessment and understand that he had a very padded record of low quality opposition even after he became a champion.

All boxers have had some padding or "tune ups." That's just a part of the sport. But, you're now talking about a universally recognized all time great with over 100 fights. Who are you to say that one of those "south of the border" fights was not competitive?

You appear to me to be a guy that probably didn't see much of Duran's career. It's a common mistake with posters around here that one can simply pull up a fighter's stats and now understand that fighter's whole career. Let me tell you something....you can't. If you weren't around to see it, then you missed it. Therefore, if some old timer tells you that Duran was one of the true all time greats of the ring, then I'd consider listening and learning.

[Panamaniac]

Panamaniac...I suggest before you speak you research.....For the sakes of muting any weak arguement that I could envision one would have by saying everyone has horrible bums their first several fights...Which is true but not as far deep into their career as Duran had... Not that Duran does not have names on his resume, but why doesnt the media judge duran the same as everyone else. Here is a sample of fighters he faced after becoming a champion.

Jose peterson 23-14-1
AlvaroRojas 3-4
Vilomar Fernandez 19-5-1
Javier Muniz 18-6-2
Bernardo Diaz 1-4
Adolfo Viruet 14-3
Ezequiel Obando 0-3

Your long-winded rantings beg for a little perspective. Duran fought 119 times, are those the only bums you can find? Morever, he fought most of the bums toward the end of his career, in his mid-forties, when he was only doing it for the payday, after having squandered most of his wealth.

As for "the Media" judging Duran favorably, didn't you know their bias is due to the fact that they are all Panamanian?!

[wpink1]

Wow You want me to list all the bums...There are over 20 of them.....And no I was only referring to his fights at Lightweight.

As for knowing Duran's careeer, etc..I was a fan of Durans, and like him back then, only I liked Ray better. Also, I agree Box Rec doesnt give us the ability to subjectivley review ones career, but the funny thing that Duran supporters always do is discredit factual objective information, because it shows that Duran is a all time great but that he was not the God that many try to make him out to be.

If we are goinig to reveiw ones Career then yes you do look at his fights,,and Tune ups is a great excuse especially when I am referring to about 20 or so of these fights before he moved up to Welter. There are not that many tune up's in the world. I am not here debating Durans greatness, all I am pointing out to you all is that if you all are going to say Duran was 70-1 at lightweight and that justifies him being considered better than Mayweather, Leonard etc...I say that once Mayweather and leonard became champs or even on the radar screen they DID not fight the fighter with poor records that Duran faced, and if these fights that Duran faced in Mexico was very competitive and the fighter had a record of 1-4 then hmmm maybe you have some questions about Duran.

I ask each of you this, when your responding ask yourself would you say the same thing if it was anyone else? Would you say that Roy Jones who is often accused of a weak resume, would you give him the same break Duran gets. Or If mayweather had moved up and lost repeatedly as Duran has and they are roughtly the same age when making the move up...would you give Mayweather the same benefit of the doubt. When Mosley lost to Forrest twice, and Wright does Mosely get the benefit of excuses as to why he lost, and discredit the fighter who beat him as happens with every fight that duran losses. Dejesus, Leonard, hearns...according to Duran fans it was not because of the great efforts by the fighter but it is because duran was not focuses, or did nt eat, or was not himself......That is the point that I simply laugh at when debating about Duran. I will be the first to tell you that I loved him and what he did for the sport and that he would fight anybody,,but we do have to judge him honestly and by the same standards we judge others.

[Wiley Hyena]

Wow You want me to list all the bums...There are over 20 of them.....And no I was only referring to his fights at Lightweight.

As for knowing Duran's careeer, etc..I was a fan of Durans, and like him back then, only I liked Ray better. Also, I agree Box Rec doesnt give us the ability to subjectivley review ones career, but the funny thing that Duran supporters always do is discredit factual objective information, because it shows that Duran is a all time great but that he was not the God that many try to make him out to be.

If we are goinig to reveiw ones Career then yes you do look at his fights,,and Tune ups is a great excuse especially when I am referring to about 20 or so of these fights before he moved up to Welter. There are not that many tune up's in the world. I am not here debating Durans greatness, all I am pointing out to you all is that if you all are going to say Duran was 70-1 at lightweight and that justifies him being considered better than Mayweather, Leonard etc...I say that once Mayweather and leonard became champs or even on the radar screen they DID not fight the fighter with poor records that Duran faced, and if these fights that Duran faced in Mexico was very competitive and the fighter had a record of 1-4 then hmmm maybe you have some questions about Duran.

I ask each of you this, when your responding ask yourself would you say the same thing if it was anyone else? Would you say that Roy Jones who is often accused of a weak resume, would you give him the same break Duran gets. Or If mayweather had moved up and lost repeatedly as Duran has and they are roughtly the same age when making the move up...would you give Mayweather the same benefit of the doubt. When Mosley lost to Forrest twice, and Wright does Mosely get the benefit of excuses as to why he lost, and discredit the fighter who beat him as happens with every fight that duran losses. Dejesus, Leonard, hearns...according to Duran fans it was not because of the great efforts by the fighter but it is because duran was not focuses, or did nt eat, or was not himself......That is the point that I simply laugh at when debating about Duran. I will be the first to tell you that I loved him and what he did for the sport and that he would fight anybody,,but we do have to judge him honestly and by the same standards we judge others.

Then by all means apply that same standard to Floyd and of course, Julio Ceasar Chavez. Please analyze prime Chavez v. prime Leonard for me while you're at it.

The point is that retroactively analysing a resume is no substitute for actually viewing the fighter in action in his prime. When I do that, it is easy to agree that Duran is one of the pound for pound greats that ever set foot in the ring.