Let's be honest here....Manny took human growth hormone right?...Reasonable debate.

[AddiX]

the thread is about manny pacquaio....stop deflecting

why wouldnt his own trainer know what he is taking or drinking

then calls the guy shady who gave him the drinks

In fairness trainers don't always know what a fighter takes or not.

And I don't know why everyone brings up the Shakes, I don't know of any PEDs you take through a fcking shake.

[Spoon23]

here is what you said that caught my attention --

I like to say, if you look at Manny in those periods where he was throwing 1000+ hard punches (as well as moving around the ring non-stop), you would say he is the complete opposite of how you would advise someone to box for a 12 round period, because if they did, their muscles would be so fatigued and starved of oxygen, they would not make it to the final bell... yet Manny would not only make it to the final bell, he would do it all without looking like it was any effort at all.

so your just gonna ignored the fact that manny was in his prime during that period right? and if taking peds can make a boxer punch 1000+ per round non stop all the way to the 12th, then why havent we seen any other boxers do the same? im sure pac is not the only one that is "juicing" right?

Don't forget Pac started as a feather weight. Which also means they are meant to be faster than heavier weight classes. Pac speed is because of his size. People forget that the lighter your division is the faster the fighters are, what is great about pac is since he started at the featherweight divisions he was able to carry his speed gradually going up. A talent that is a rarity yes, but isn't Michael Jordan a rarity too? Not all athletes are gifted gems. Not all athletes can jump like MJ. Pac is just a rare one of a kind athlete. Why can't people realize some athletes are really gifted. And it can also be a rare gift that can be called as Talent.

MJ must be juicing since he can jump higher than most NBA players. That's just down playing a great man's accomplishments and very unfair. Unless you have any proof, I call MJ a great man since he truly did great things.

[WesternChamp]

Don't forget Pac started as a feather weight. Which also means they are meant to be faster than heavier weight classes. Pac speed is because of his size. People forget that the lighter your division is the faster the fighters are, what is great about pac is since he started at the featherweight divisions he was able to carry his speed gradually going up. A talent that is a rarity yes, but does Michael Jordan a rarity too? Not all athletes are gems. Not all athletes can jump like MJ. Pac is just a rare one of a kind athlete. Why can't people realize some athletes are really gifted. And it can also be a rare gift that can be called as Talent.

when it comes to pac = peds

when it comes to their god = hard work dedication

[craigus1990]

here is what you said that caught my attention --

I like to say, if you look at Manny in those periods where he was throwing 1000+ hard punches (as well as moving around the ring non-stop), you would say he is the complete opposite of how you would advise someone to box for a 12 round period, because if they did, their muscles would be so fatigued and starved of oxygen, they would not make it to the final bell... yet Manny would not only make it to the final bell, he would do it all without looking like it was any effort at all.

so your just gonna ignored the fact that manny was in his prime during that period right? and if taking peds can make a boxer punch 1000+ per round non stop all the way to the 12th, then why havent we seen any other boxers do the same? im sure pac is not the only one that is "juicing" right?

Again, if you actually read further into my post than just responding to the parts that seem to upset you, the answers to your grievances of the argument, lie in the original post. I state that this could be argued as ageing... then go on to say that if that is the case, why did he seem to tire a great deal more pre-'06? And I say, the 5 year period where he didn't seem to tire was passed his biological peak. For a start, you are using 'prime' as a loose word that means a perception of when a boxer is at his best... this term denotes things like boxing IQ, technique etc... these are not things I am arguing... I am merely arguing biology... and a male human's biological peak is thought of between 21-25... Manny was beyond 25 for that period of time in which we are speaking.
So to finish up, in future, please read posts thoroughly before responding because I literally said all of this in the original post... and secondly, unless you have something more to add that is of some interesting points of view... then I am pretty much done with this already.. I felt like adding my points to the thread but I really don't want to be going over nonsense all day, trying to make people understand the basic principles of forming a view based on data....

[sunny31]

I believe most fighters and athletes in general are using something or other that is illegal.

It all just depends if they get caught, or if they have enough money and influence to grease enough palms to get away with it.

Yes this is what became apparent in Armstrong book, doping became almost a skill set. It became an attribute if you were highly organised, to pretty much quote the book, Lance Armstrong said they were going to be the best athletes, the best strategists, the best cyclist, and the best dopers.

Being highly organised with the doping in that world was as important as any kind of training that these guys were doing. That and as you say a lot of power. Lance Armstrong had at least 2 failed tests(that are known about), which tested positive for EPO that were covered up by the UCI. He was just worth too much money to take down for these people. Its pretty scary stuff. There are fighters who could easily hold that position in boxing.

[WesternChamp]

Again, if you actually read further into my post than just responding to the parts that seem to upset you, the answers to your grievances of the argument, lie in the original post. I state that this could be argued as ageing... then go on to say that if that is the case, why did he seem to tire a great deal more pre-'06? And I say, the 5 year period where he didn't seem to tire was passed his biological peak. For a start, you are using 'prime' as a loose word that means a perception of when a boxer is at his best... this term denotes things like boxing IQ, technique etc... these are not things I am arguing... I am merely arguing biology... and a male human's biological peak is thought of between 21-25... Manny was beyond 25 for that period of time in which we are speaking.
So to finish up, in future, please read posts thoroughly before responding because I literally said all of this in the original post... and secondly, unless you have something more to add that is of some interesting points of view... then I am pretty much done with this already.. I felt like adding my points to the thread but I really don't want to be going over nonsense all day, trying to make people understand the basic principles of forming a view based on data....

i did read your entire run on sentence post which is just going around in circle. and you still didnt respond to my question lol

he seem to get tired a great deal pre -06?? what fights? how so? can you go more into details instead of just posting whatever fits you. there is no truth to a male's biological peak is between 21-25. so i guess after you hit 25, your suppsoe to slow down right? does this count for all boxers or just manny?

[Boxing Goat]

There's no proof to that and even to this day the Mayweather's and Mallignaggi are the only buffoons who ever claimed that and both are/were Pacquiao haters.

[sunny31]

I believe most fighters and athletes in general are using something or other that is illegal.

It all just depends if they get caught, or if they have enough money and influence to grease enough palms to get away with it.

Most people will berate you about this thread, saying it has been done to death etc... but I disagree, I think there are interesting points to discuss around the subject matter... I class myself as an honest, scientifically minded individual... and I no longer view boxing with a bias... as I only watch for the interest in good fights, and not to be a fanboy of certain fighter.
Off the bat I will go on record and say, without admission, we would never be able to give an answer that is without argument either way... (which is why some people would rather not discuss it... bit of a fools errand) but if we are to make and individual judgement, then a discussion of the arguments for both sides can make for a good platform.
Now, to state my position, I would have to say I personally believe he was juicing at some point.... what exactly he was taking and for how long, I wouldn't claim to know... but there are a lot of signs that indicate he was.
I think that without performance enhancers, he was still a solid fighter that legitimately won a lot of fights and would have been a good champion either way... but I think performance enhancers took him to a level he wouldn't have reached otherwise....
One of the points you brought up, that I find one of the more interesting as an argument for the case (and one that is very difficult to argue against), was how there were a number of fights where the shear volume of activity of explosive movement/actions, that occurred without slowdown or visual signs of fatigue, were in my opinion beyond the abilities of someone who is clean of performance enhancers. I like to say, if you look at Manny in those periods where he was throwing 1000+ hard punches (as well as moving around the ring non-stop), you would say he is the complete opposite of how you would advise someone to box for a 12 round period, because if they did, their muscles would be so fatigued and starved of oxygen, they would not make it to the final bell... yet Manny would not only make it to the final bell, he would do it all without looking like it was any effort at all... I mean we are talking consistent activity over every minute of every round... without ever looking like he was out of breath... the mind boggles. It is also quite a solid argument, just because you can almost pinpoint the moment it became apparent... if you watch him before '06, even though he was a fighter that threw a lot of shots and showed a lot of activity in terms of movement etc, he would gas... he would get visibly tired and would show it... after '06 (give or take a year, these dates are being pulled from memory and are prone to error), to my eye, he stopped showing fatigue and was able to sustain energy levels beyond what we had seen before... and then in around '11/'12 he began to look human again, and would begin to visibly slow down and fatigue over the course of 12 round fights... that could be argued to be age... but why did he have this strange 5 or so year period (after his natural biological peak) where he looked like he could never tire?
But yeah, add to that all of the other strange indicators... (his unnaturally large hands and head, his odd behaviour when prompted to take certain drug testing for a career high pay day [that came with strange excuses that seemingly changed by the week]) and all of it really does build a strong enough case for one to at least be highly suspicious.
Again, we can't really know for certain, but yeah, I am almost convinced that something wasn't quite legit.

Thanks for replying, and I think you know what I am trying to say. It seems we have both picked up kind of similar things there. You want to believe in hero's naturally, and you want to believe that this guy who came along in your generation was doing these unprecedented things. When it was happening, this is actually what I thought, I actually despised people who hated on Pacquiao because he is very likeable as person to boot. But now looking back, I do think I was naive. There are just too many question marks, to be honest I think even though it is two entirely different sports, this Lance Armstrong book put things into much more perspective for me, from the point of view of how far athletes are in front of the testing and how organised these guys are with it.

[WesternChamp]

There's no proof to that and even to this day the Mayweather's and Mallignaggi are the only buffoons who ever claimed that and both are/were Pacquiao haters.

the mayweathers actually backed off on it a little... their fans and paulie is another story tho...

[Tom Cruise]

Im sure that Manny Pac was probably on some sort of PED(s), he could stand to lose tens/hundreds of millions of dollars in current and future earnings if he lost. That goes for his team too. Why take the risk when you know hat its probably 99% certain that your opponents are cheating too?

But to try and judge based on your perception of his head size is crazy.

For a start he started eating a huge amount of calories as he moved through the weights. This means that his face would have filled out a lot in that time. he also grew his hair long, which make his head look bigger and he also just got older. Features such as the nose and ears continue to grow as you get older, your face also 'drops' as you age. All of which can help to distort your view of his head and face as he moved up.

So in conclusion: probably on PEDs, but photos of his head are not a scientific way to accuse him.