Comments Thread For: Golden Boy's Lawsuit Against Al Haymon Enters Discovery Phase

Collapse
Collapse
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • Mitchell Kane
    Undisputed Champion
    Platinum Champion - 1,000-5,000 posts
    • Mar 2008
    • 3205
    • 66
    • 0
    • 10,996

    #121


    The most audacious Al Haymon court argument yet: the TV networks are the promoters, don’t look at me


    The battle of “experts” becomes a circus

    What has been most interesting is the battle of “experts”, with Haymon using long-time ally Kerry Davis (formerly of HBO) and Golden Boy relying upon Gary Shaw.

    Kerry Davis in his words:

    “First, Mr. Shaw is incorrect in broadly asserting that boxing promoters take significant financial risk. While some promoters are willing and able to take financial risks, the business model pursued by many promoters is to first secure television license fees and sometimes site fees that cover most or all of their expenses in promoting a fight card. In this respect, many of these companies operate more as “packagers” than as actual promoters.”

    The number of boxing promoters who have spectacularly failed is voluminous. There is a proverbial graveyard full of them. Ask athletic commissions how many promoters come and go, especially in California. The risk associated with making money as a fight promoter is ultrahazardous. Why do you think, historically speaking, old time promoters were stable? They were stable because of organized crime laundering money. The underlying fundamentals of risk have always been tremendous in promoting fight sports. It’s one of the most risky business endeavors you could possibly undertake.

    Al Haymon is the perfect example of this. He’s burned through tens of millions, if not hundreds of millions of dollars in hedge fund cash and has floundered. His entire business model with PBC would look so much different if he relied upon the standard pay TV business model that Golden Boy & Bob Arum have been navigating. After losing tons of cash, Haymon’s business model is starting to shift into what a “normal” high-end promoter model looks like in the modern era rather than his audacious attempt to flood every broadcast channel with prepaid programming.

    “Third, Mr. Shaw is incorrect in asserting that it is the exclusive province of the boxing promoter to deal with television networks in connection with televised boxing events. While I was at HBO, several prominent managers dealt directly with HBO on behalf of their star fighters. Mr. Haymon, who also dealt directly with HBO, was not at all unusual. Negotiating with a television network on behalf of a boxer does not make one a promoter.”

    If Al Haymon is not a promoter, then HBO is a promoter. And promoters are required to be licensed in each state with athletic commission and abide by the provisions in the Ali Act.

    “Fourth, Mr. Shaw is incorrect in asserting that the PBC series and its creators somehow have an unfair advantage over existing industry stakeholders like HBO, Showtime, Top Rank, and Golden Boy, or that the PBC series’ business model is somehow bad for the boxing industry. The PBC series certainly has made the boxing business more competitive, which may be uncomfortable for those who were content with existing arrangements. But if Haymon Sports succeeds in growing the audience for professional boxing by broadcasting fights on network television, broadly speaking that should help, not hurt, other industry players.”

    Kerry Davis’ argument is undermined by the fact that Haymon’s side supposedly waived exclusivity clauses. If PBC contracts had exclusivity clauses, that would automatically stifle competition for other promoters.
    There are other legal issues brewing for Al Haymon’s PBC

    The real legal action remains in Kansas with the shareholder derivative lawsuit against the hedge fund financing Haymon. If that lawsuit survives the motion to dismiss on November 10th, then the war begins with discovery and deposition on information regarding the financing of Al Haymon. That is the nuclear bomb.

    Comment

    • Eff Pandas
      Banned
      Franchise Champion - 20,000+ posts
      • Apr 2012
      • 52130
      • 3,624
      • 2,147
      • 1,635,919

      #122
      There are other legal issues brewing for Al Haymon’s PBC

      The real legal action remains in Kansas with the shareholder derivative lawsuit against the hedge fund financing Haymon. If that lawsuit survives the motion to dismiss on November 10th, then the war begins with discovery and deposition on information regarding the financing of Al Haymon. That is the nuclear bomb.
      People keep saying the Waddell lawsuit thing is a problem for PBC. I don't see it. The Waddell lawsuit is a problem for Waddell & it sounds like its about way more than PBC based on the funds losses + I don't think that ultimately is more than a bunch of guys with some money seeing some opportunity to potentially get that money back via kinda sorta bs means.

      Interesting that they are saying PBC has lost so much (nearly $800M). That should get the attention of the anti-PBC crew. I'd love to see their balance sheet & see what went where if that is the case. See how much went to infrastructure, how much went to fighters purses, how much went to getting TV time, how much went to lawsuits or whatever else. All I know is Hanz Zimmer somehow got a million & Haymon loves Lara cuz he keeps giving him a mill per fight, more or less, too despite 1 mfer under a tarp in the rain watching his fight.

      Comment

      • Mitchell Kane
        Undisputed Champion
        Platinum Champion - 1,000-5,000 posts
        • Mar 2008
        • 3205
        • 66
        • 0
        • 10,996

        #123
        Originally posted by Eff Pandas
        People keep saying the Waddell lawsuit thing is a problem for PBC. I don't see it. The Waddell lawsuit is a problem for Waddell & it sounds like its about way more than PBC based on the funds losses + I don't think that ultimately is more than a bunch of guys with some money seeing some opportunity to potentially get that money back via kinda sorta bs means.

        Interesting that they are saying PBC has lost so much (nearly $800M). That should get the attention of the anti-PBC crew. I'd love to see their balance sheet & see what went where if that is the case. See how much went to infrastructure, how much went to fighters purses, how much went to getting TV time, how much went to lawsuits or whatever else. All I know is Hanz Zimmer somehow got a million & Haymon loves Lara cuz he keeps giving him a mill per fight, more or less, too despite 1 mfer under a tarp in the rain watching his fight.
        I assume the speculation is simply what's bad for W&R would be bad for the PBC - not legally, but financially - but we'll see if it even gets past the motion to dismiss.

        But if it does, then it's possible we'll learn a lot more about the PBC's funding.

        Comment

        • Mitchell Kane
          Undisputed Champion
          Platinum Champion - 1,000-5,000 posts
          • Mar 2008
          • 3205
          • 66
          • 0
          • 10,996

          #124
          Update on the case from FightOpinion, that breaks down some of Haymon's legal arguments...



          Haymon’s attorneys cite the case of Rebel Oil Company vs. Arco regarding a determination of a market. Haymon argues that PBC buying time on networks like NBC and CBS isn’t restricting competition because none of the other major boxing players were on those platforms. The Arco case dealt with the gasoline company offering self-serve gasoline at a lower price and Rebel claiming that Arco drove out competitors by discounting their product at a cut-rate in order to turn around, gain substantial market share, and then jack up the prices after taking over the market. The issue of predatory pricing.
          Team Haymon cites Omega Environmental Inc. vs. Gilbarco Inc case law to argue that deals involving exclusivity with distributors are not anti-competitive. In this case, PBC’s exclusivity with NBC & CBS isn’t anti-competitive because Golden Boy can still do business with HBO and on PPV. Plus, Haymon argues the TV contracts were of “short duration” with “easy terminability” options.
          Haymon argues that his boxers are not obligated to sign long-term promotional agreements with Golden Boy and cites a recent Aerotec vs. Honeywell court decision regarding Aerotec failing to prove antitrust violations because Honeywell had a parts shortage which caused Aerotec’s repair business to tank. Aerotec alleged that Honeywell’s part shortage was done on purpose to kill their company. The 9th District Court of Appeals said there was no evidence to prove this assertion. Haymon’s arguing that his fighters refusing to sign contracts with Golden Boy isn’t evidence of intent of anti-competitive or unfair business practices.
          Haymon cited Matsu****a Electric Industrial vs. Zenith Radio Corporation, a 1986 Supreme Court decision regarding Zenith claiming that Matsu****a artificially kept prices high in the Japanese market but undercut them in the United States with cut-rate pricing to obtain market share by driving out the competition. The Supreme Court ruled that offering competitive pricing is not an automatic sign of predatory pricing. Predatory pricing involves 1) below cost pricing and 2) “a reasonable expectation of recovering, in the form of later monopoly profits, more than the losses suffered.”
          The 1993 Supreme Court case involving cigarette manufacturers Liggett and Brown & Williamson is cited. Liggett made generic cigarettes and Brown & Williamson countered by making their own generic cigarettes at below-cost pricing with volume rebates. A rebate war broke out between the two companies before a generic cigarette was even sold. Liggett claimed the price rebates from Brown & Williamson were discriminatory in order to manipulate the margins on both the generic and retail branded smokes. On appeal, Brown & Williamson won because a judge said Liggett couldn’t prove a causal link for damages between the price rebates and Liggett’s alleged economic injury.
          Given Team Haymon’s classification of Golden Boy as part of a boxing oligopoly, their arguments about losing money not equaling predatory pricing makes for a very interesting court argument and a likely scenario that Haymon will be able to strike some portions of Golden Boy’s anti-trust & unfair competition court complaint.

          Comment

          • Mitchell Kane
            Undisputed Champion
            Platinum Champion - 1,000-5,000 posts
            • Mar 2008
            • 3205
            • 66
            • 0
            • 10,996

            #125
            FightOpinion ‏@FightOpinion
            http://www.fightopinion.com/2016/11/...wsuit/*… In court, Al Haymon says he's not predatory because he lost so much money & can't make it back. Too bad, hedge fund!

            Paul Gift‏@MMAanalytics
            Paul Gift Retweeted Paul Gift
            Speaking of hundreds of mil. Fair value of alleged W&R investments into Haymon en****** including #PBC on 9/30: $152.2M Value, $773.1M Loss

            FightOpinion ‏@FightOpinion 2h
            FightOpinion Retweeted Paul Gift
            http://www.fightopinion.com/2016/11/...wsuit/*… The hedge fund says $773M loss, Al Haymon says he'll never make it back, and war is coming with Kansas shareholders.

            Comment

            • .!WAR MIKEY!.
              Banned
              Franchise Champion - 20,000+ posts
              • Aug 2015
              • 23780
              • 889
              • 769
              • 309,182

              #126
              Originally posted by boxfan83
              civil law unlike criminal law takes a very very very long time to settle after the discovery phase especially with a case like this. I bet the discovery docket is huge and will be held up with motions to suppress/dismiss, itll be challenged by either sides attorney, extensions will be granted by a judge that dont mind extending things because he has like 1000 other cases to get to, so we should probably expect a "settlement" around 2020, probably the same year canelo fights ggg lol
              war canelo!

              Comment

              • Mitchell Kane
                Undisputed Champion
                Platinum Champion - 1,000-5,000 posts
                • Mar 2008
                • 3205
                • 66
                • 0
                • 10,996

                #127
                Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics · 45m45 minutes ago
                According to Al Haymon depo: Haymon owns Haymon Development which co-owns Haymon Holdings w/ Waddell which wholly owns Haymon Sports.

                Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics · 45m45 minutes ago
                Haymon Sports contracts with boxers, TV networks, and sponsors and runs the operations of #PBC.

                Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics · 27m27 minutes ago
                Eric Gomez says the license fees of ShowBox, FOX Sports and ESPN were around $50,000 before PBC started. #boxing

                Comment

                • Mitchell Kane
                  Undisputed Champion
                  Platinum Champion - 1,000-5,000 posts
                  • Mar 2008
                  • 3205
                  • 66
                  • 0
                  • 10,996

                  #128
                  FightOpinion
                  ‏@FightOpinion
                  http://www.fightopinion.com/2016/11/...court-contract … SURPRISE: For the first time, Al Haymon admits he's a boxing manager (in court) & here are his contract details



                  Quick & dirty summary

                  ◾In a Federal court filing, Al Haymon’s attorney repeatedly admits that he’s a boxing manager and not “an advisor”
                  ◾Public record requests reveal that Haymon is a licensed manager in Nevada but not in California
                  ◾Legal admission of Haymon being a manager raises the stake for Ali Act legal issues
                  ◾A review of one of Haymon’s management contracts reveals consummation in California but “choice of law” provision in Nevada with mandatory arbitration
                  ◾Haymon contract requires five year minimum term (seven year maximum term) with automatic two year extensions for any fighter in a title fight or any fighter who signs a promotional contract with a TV outlet

                  Comment

                  • Mitchell Kane
                    Undisputed Champion
                    Platinum Champion - 1,000-5,000 posts
                    • Mar 2008
                    • 3205
                    • 66
                    • 0
                    • 10,996

                    #129
                    Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics ropeadopeRadio They testified under oath to have not taken a commision for Haymon fighters in PBC.

                    Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics ropeadopeRadio W&R co-owns Haymon Holdings which owns Haymon Sports which waived commissions for its PBC boxers. So it would seem not.

                    Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics ropeadopeRadio It said "PBC series bouts." I took it to mean including Showtime, but who knows.

                    Comment

                    • Mitchell Kane
                      Undisputed Champion
                      Platinum Champion - 1,000-5,000 posts
                      • Mar 2008
                      • 3205
                      • 66
                      • 0
                      • 10,996

                      #130
                      Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics
                      Paul Gift Retweeted Dash
                      It might be PBC only. But I'm trusting W&R $773.1M loss & $152.2M remaining value in Haymon en****** until better confirmation.


                      Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics
                      Here's Oscar De La Hoya's confirmation of the "key man" clauses & the implication he didn't know what was going into GB's contracts. #boxing

                      Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics
                      Al Haymon testified that league-like structure is needed "for this to work." Mike Ring testified about Haymon Sports converting to promoter.


                      Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics
                      Michael Ring also testified about his alleged doc: If they don't "flip the model" by start of 2018 season, it will probably never happen.


                      Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics
                      Boxer pay in league-like Haymon Sports model is mentioned as a minimum amount & revenue sharing arrangement "like the NFL." #boxing


                      Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics
                      "Flipping the model" appears to be Haymon Sports getting TV rights fees AND converting from manager to promoter. #boxing #UFCinspired


                      Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics
                      Golden Boy's Eric Gomez testified about lying to "nosy" Dan Rafael when he didn't want to give him information. #wildgoosechase #boxing


                      Paul Gift ‏@MMAanalytics
                      Al Haymon's attempt to purchase Golden Boy a few years ago appears to have been for around $100 million, based on question in Haymon's depo.
                      Last edited by Mitchell Kane; 11-11-2016, 04:37 PM.

                      Comment

                      Working...
                      TOP