Mayweather's IV injection (Master thread)

[travestyny]

If you checked the study, everyone's level dropped and for ALL it remained stable for 8 hours.

If you checked out the measurements, you would notice that for some, it was as high as 3.9% with just 500ml. So to say, it's not a one size fits all. I brought this up to you back then as well. Remember delayed and Floyd drank quite a bit and had 750ml.

Sorry, but I don't think I'm following properly. The lowest value I see in the study is 43.3% The original value is 45.8%. The average in a male is about 45%, so I don't see how this is so significant. Again, even the study says this change is very minimal. I'm not sure if 500ml was a good choice for them. I would like to see how an increased dosage of saline would affect this study.

I'm aware now that when I said 2 hours, I was thinking of urine testing. You are correct to point out that what is important is hematocrit level. I have no problem with that and I stated that if I'm wrong about the 2 hours, I will accept that. I've found products that will allow someone to beat a blood test for as long as 7 hours. I told you that I would even give you 8 hours. However, I'm confident that this simply does not apply to 24 hours. No way. The masking effect was clearly moot when it comes to that time period and I'm sure you know that, which is why you are talking about him possibly using another IV.

50% levels: If you remember, I brought this up already. Someone's levels does not have to be at the extreme end of the spectrum to be considered beneficial for the athlete.

If you remember, I used as an example back where if an athlete's normal level was 40 and they boost it up to 52% then that is a significant increase but just a bit over.

Again, not sure what you mean. Over 50% is what I've been finding for when testing agencies will be su****ious of doping. From the study, it seems clear that 500ml won't get it back down to acceptable levels. I'd like to know more specifically about 750ml. However, this still doesn't explain how the masking effect can last 24 hours. It simply won't.

1) Look Trav. How can you call what I stated "can smell BS" when what happened with this IV scandal points to Floyd NOT requiring an IV? So Floyd getting this IV, should be smelling quite a bit of BS but you are not going there. How come? Is it not a stretch for Floyd to require an IV with his weight being relatively stable?

What so many posters and I have been trying to tell you is simply you are not aware of his medical condition. No one can prove you wrong, but you can't prove that you are right. We need his medical records. We also need to know more about USADA's requirements. What do they deem to be a significant impairment to an athlete's health? You keep talking about his weight, but when I mention chronic dehydration and how he could have fit into that scenario, as well as when others mention various scenarios that could have existed, you deny them. It's hypocritical of you to mention so many various possibilities for how he used PED's and expect posters to accept them, yet when posters mention various situations that may have caused acute or chronic dehydration, you deem them impossible. The fact of the matter is no one of us really knows. These are the only facts that we have to go by and we can't go making up other facts:

1. He took an IV of 750ml of saline and vitamin C.
2. The IV was approved by USADA
3. He gave a partial urine sample before the IV.
4. Any masking effect from the IV would not exist 24 hours later when he took other tests (do you disagree?)
5. He passed all 19 drug and urine tests.

Correct me if I'm missing anything, but from this information, there is no reason to find anything su****ious. What you are doing would be the same as simply stating one of the 18 tests came up positive. You are making up your own scenario based on possibility. Sure it's possible that he failed all of the tests, isn't it? Maybe you will be proven right at some point, but for now you have no right to accuse without some proof.

As for my scenarios, they are NOT my scenarios.
This is what freaking happens all the time!!! Not just Lance Armstrong but others have stories that are very similar to what I stated!!! Remember that Lance passed his tests every time but still smuggled IVs. Yet you call this BS?

Lance also used EPO which they've been testing for successfully for some time now. Even when micro-dosing, they can detect it up to 85 hours after use. You are placing far too much emphasis on Lance. Maybe Mayweather is using something new, but where is your proof?

[travestyny]

The only thing that does not happen all the time is getting a retroactive TUE for something like Floyd's case.
Why would Lance and others need to smuggle? They could have just said "Give me an IV. I will send you a retro application in 3 weeks. Doctor's note? Sure I can get that EASILY, wink wink."
A cyclist can easily go down a few pounds on a ride and say that they need an IV. So just to say, Floyd's case is all a big joke.

Mayweather still had to pass 17 other drug and urine tests. Furthermore, is it logical to believe he would pay off USADA in order to get a retroactive TUE, as you mentioned? If that was the plan, logically wouldn't he have paid them off to either fake the testing or to simply stay away while he takes the IV? Come on now.

2) Maybe you are missing what I said. On May 2nd, Floyd could have got his own private Dr Ariza to do it from his home hours before the fight.

NEWs FLASH: You brought up the "not possible" questions. We told you that its possible and how it can be. Then you deflected.

You've been saying that I've said this is not possible for some time. I've never recalled saying that. I do recall saying the science behind the masking doesn't add up, and I stand by that. Anything is possible, but you are just accusing with no proof. Now you believe he had another IV right before the fight? Really? What do you have to base that on?

Nice. It shows that FLoyd has done this trick before. Delay.

So he had this one prepared. It was all planned. May 1st was the more improved version.

???? Are you serious? No IV given. Partial urine sample and blood given. Your conclusion is that he got even more lucky than on May 1st? Come on, man. This is really pathetic.

So did Lance Armstrong. Like Floyd, Lance to used banned methods just before giving urine. Why? To mask them PEDs!

Lance has nothing to do with this! If anything, Lance serves as more proof that Mayweather wasn't cheating. Lance's case was the most groundbreaking and caused the testing agencies to really up their game. His samples have since retroactively tested positive. Mayweather is taking more stringent tests, and though you will just say he just found a new way to beat these new and better tests, you have NO PROOF!

Last I checked, they do not give retroactive TUEs just for dehydration of a few pounds, if that. Floyd may have already been good after he drank so much after the weigh in!

He came in on fight night at 149 and Floyd, not me, said he ate a lot and was physically extremely strong!

Again, do you realize that the 149 weight was after the IV? You keep saying this as if he drank water, ate a meal, then weighed in, then had the IV. The IV is included in his rehydration to 149.

As for your comment on DCO, its not applicable in my scenarios. Even then, I just want to point out this:
Ask Lance Armstrong and others who did it right under the nose of the DCO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!![/COLOR][/B]

What does this have to do with anything. The DCO was present for the IV. Nothing was hidden.

If you were a Lance Armstrong fan, you would have smelled no BS just like you are not able to smell BS for Floyd. That is your problem.

You do realize they are two different people, right? This is becoming an obsession with you. They are not the same person! Just hope to make that clear to you.

When was the initial sample given? just before the IV? That's a delay of how many hours later? was it just a drop? It was combined with what was collected after! Plus, Floyd can use as an excuse that being dehydrated increased his HT levels. Its the perfect plan.

These are questions you should be asking someone else. It appears to me that the initial sample would have been given before he arrived for the weigh in, when the DCO initially went to his home. How much was it? I don't know. Do you? Maybe you can clear this up. And why would he have to discuss his HT levels? There was never any controversy about his HT levels, was there?

Simple question that you have never answered and probably still won't: Would combining dirty urine with clean urine make it more or less likely that the PED test will come out positive? There is a clear answer.

When athletes micro dose its for a reason and they try to guestimate when will be the next possible time that they can get tested. Some micro dose taking into account that the DCO will not be showing up between certain hours of the day. Example 11pm to 6am.
Some thinking that the last test will be after the fight may plan it differently.

The point is that its possible and yes its possible to incorrectly estimate. THAT IS WHY THEY MASK!!!! Not hard to understand!

These tests can be retroactively tested for up to 8 years, I think I read somewhere. Furthermore, what are you accusing him of taking? There is better testing for EPO and new forms of EPO, there is CIR testing, there is the Biological Passport. Again, where is your proof of wrongdoing?

Its a huge scandal. Even your sources (the article your had) stated that Floyd getting the IV for hydration purposes does not add up.

The article says this:
" [Hauser] puts forth a very solid case that Mayweather was unlikely to have been dehydrated severely enough to necessitate IV rehydration. However, it requires a lot of logical gymnastics to jump from this point to the conclusion that he must, therefore, have been using the IV for more sinister purposes."

I have no problem with that statement. The authors says unlikely, not impossible, and it didn't touch on any of the evidence. Perhaps that is because the true evidence is in THE MEDICAL RECORDS!

Its all in the scales. Floyd weighed 148 the week before. Floyd weighed 146 + drank about 2lb of water. Floyd was back to 148 BEFORE the IV!!! Floyd felt physically extremely strong at 149 on fight night.

I don't know what you are talking about, and neither do you. Where is your proof that he was back to 148 before the IV? Did you weigh him personally?

SO WHY THE IV FLOYD? WHY? You were already at or around 149 before you even got the IV. All you had to do is drink and as you said, you ate a lot!

He was weighted AFTER the IV. I don't see why you have mistaken that over and over again.

Also, the NSAC found it very troubling and called it unacceptable. Nobody thinks what happened was right. Not unless you are a Floyd fan.

Last I checked, NSAC said he did nothing wrong. You are in disagreement with NSAC, so you don't have any ground to stand on here.

Now please stop with the highly speculative essays. I'm not here to discuss speculation. If you have any facts, do share.

[ADP02]

Sorry, but I don't think I'm following properly. The lowest value I see in the study is 43.3% The original value is 45.8%. The average in a male is about 45%, so I don't see how this is so significant. Again, even the study says this change is very minimal. I'm not sure if 500ml was a good choice for them. I would like to see how an increased dosage of saline would affect this study.

I'm aware now that when I said 2 hours, I was thinking of urine testing. You are correct to point out that what is important is hematocrit level. I have no problem with that and I stated that if I'm wrong about the 2 hours, I will accept that. I've found products that will allow someone to beat a blood test for as long as 7 hours. I told you that I would even give you 8 hours. However, I'm confident that this simply does not apply to 24 hours. No way. The masking effect was clearly moot when it comes to that time period and I'm sure you know that, which is why you are talking about him possibly using another IV.


Again, not sure what you mean. Over 50% is what I've been finding for when testing agencies will be su****ious of doping. From the study, it seems clear that 500ml won't get it back down to acceptable levels. I'd like to know more specifically about 750ml. However, this still doesn't explain how the masking effect can last 24 hours. It simply won't.

My example is clear. Floyd can have a normal HT of 40. So 52 is actually 12 higher than the usual. So Floyd would only need to bring it down 2% when masking.

Like I said, the masking was more for the May 1st test. This is the one that came up unexpectedly.

What so many posters and I have been trying to tell you is simply you are not aware of his medical condition. No one can prove you wrong, but you can't prove that you are right. We need his medical records. We also need to know more about USADA's requirements. What do they deem to be a significant impairment to an athlete's health? You keep talking about his weight, but when I mention chronic dehydration and how he could have fit into that scenario, as well as when others mention various scenarios that could have existed, you deny them. It's hypocritical of you to mention so many various possibilities for how he used PED's and expect posters to accept them, yet when posters mention various situations that may have caused acute or chronic dehydration, you deem them impossible. The fact of the matter is no one of us really knows. These are the only facts that we have to go by and we can't go making up other facts:

1. He took an IV of 750ml of saline and vitamin C.
2. The IV was approved by USADA
3. He gave a partial urine sample before the IV.
4. Any masking effect from the IV would not exist 24 hours later when he took other tests (do you disagree?)
5. He passed all 19 drug and urine tests.

Correct me if I'm missing anything, but from this information, there is no reason to find anything su****ious. What you are doing would be the same as simply stating one of the 18 tests came up positive. You are making up your own scenario based on possibility. Sure it's possible that he failed all of the tests, isn't it? Maybe you will be proven right at some point, but for now you have no right to accuse without some proof.

The information is already there as to why Floyd took it.
- Floyd said it was due to severe dehydration.
- Floyd/Ellerbe said it was due to dehydration.
- NSAC received information from USADA stating that the reason was dehydration.
- Ariza said it was due to dehydration

They had opportunity to clear that up but instead Floyd went from saying dehydrated to severely dehydrated. Right?

So how do you assess mild, moderate, severe dehydration? Check Floyd's weight. It was certainly not moderate nor severe.

Lance also used EPO which they've been testing for successfully for some time now. Even when micro-dosing, they can detect it up to 85 hours after use. You are placing far too much emphasis on Lance. Maybe Mayweather is using something new, but where is your proof?

Lance got caught years later but not when he was able to mask! They found no PEDs.

[original zero]

but but but floyd was not dehydrated so he does not need IV.

you're sunk.

#1 - you don't know that.
#2 - IV was legal in nevada for any reason.
#3 - USADA confirmed there was a legitimate medical reason for the IV.

[Rath]

#1 - you don't know that.
#2 - IV was legal in nevada for any reason.
#3 - USADA confirmed there was a legitimate medical reason for the IV.

see how direct ans short your answer is when you want to, and when you think you got it.

but when you can not answer some post you resort to kindergarten insults and deflection. not to mention lots of blah blah blahs.

you keep saying i don't know floyd was not dehydrated when i have proven it to you many times over.

it was you who can not prove floyd was dehydrated.

it was not legal under wada code

nevada or NSAC was not the testing agency their rules for drug testing are invalid in this situation..

there were no authorized staff personnel among USADA DCO who are capable or certified to diagnose a dehydrated person.

mr. lawyer sir i have answered this so many times yet you keep repeating it as if it was a new point.

but what you always keep evading for some unknown reason is that time between 7:45 PM and 8:15 PM may 1st.

[Rath]

you said "USADA notified" (not floyd notified USADA) floyd that they were there at Floyd's house 1:45 PM. you also said that USADA allowed Floyd to IV 6 hours later.

that would be:

1:45 PM + 6 hours = 7:45 PM agree?

you also said that at 8:15PM USADA left Floyd's house.

that would give USADA and Foyd a span of 30 minutes to work all these things out:

1. Phantom paramedic sets up the IV infusion process for Floyd

2. Removed those needles and tubing (IV set up) out of floyd's arm

3. Floyd to urinate (that is suddenly floyd can urinate a second after the needle was removed)

4. USADA collects Floyd urine and processed paper works necessary.

or the the first drop of IV on Floyd's veins starts exactly at 7:45 PM?

does this means the phantom paramadeics were already there at Floyd's house at 7:45 PM and already set up the IV infusion?

which begs the following questions:

1. what time did Floyd notified USADA of his IV infusion intention?

2. what time did USADA noticed floyd was dehydrated?

3. what time did they call the phantom paramedic?

4. what time did the phantom paramedic arrived?


if you disagree with the time frame above, then present yours.

try to answer all of this direct to the point.

i am not keeping my hopes up

lots of blah blah blahs and deflections would be expected from you for sure.

spin this.

see how you avoid this post like a plague.

like how floyd avoid VADA like a plague

[travestyny]

My example is clear. Floyd can have a normal HT of 40. So 52 is actually 12 higher than the usual. So Floyd would only need to bring it down 2% when masking.

Like I said, the masking was more for the May 1st test. This is the one that came up unexpectedly.

I'm not aware of how much IV fluid he should take for a 2% decrease. I've seen only your study using 500ml, which caused very little decrease in HT, so I don't even want to discuss this issue being that I have no expertise nor have I found any information that is relevant to what I need to know about this topic. The only thing that is clear to me is that the masking effect would be moot with respect to the next day's tests. I think you agree with that since you point out that you are specifically referring to the May 1st test.

The information is already there as to why Floyd took it.
- Floyd said it was due to severe dehydration.
- Floyd/Ellerbe said it was due to dehydration.
- NSAC received information from USADA stating that the reason was dehydration.
- Ariza said it was due to dehydration

They had opportunity to clear that up but instead Floyd went from saying dehydrated to severely dehydrated. Right?

It doesn't bother me that he said severely dehydrated. Not sure why that is a big issue. The issue is whether he fits into the ISTUE guidelines. That's it. Did he have an acute or chronic condition that if left untreated would cause significant impairment to his health. This is a question that I cannot answer. It's also clear that this is a question that you cannot answer.

So how do you assess mild, moderate, severe dehydration? Check Floyd's weight. It was certainly not moderate nor severe.

We've already gone through this. We don't know at what point he became dehydrated, we can't say that the dehydration was ever treated until the administration of the IV. That is why it is completely possible that he experienced chronic dehydration and remained dehydrated as he had to maintain his weight. Without having his medical records, no one knows what about his situation would make USADA deem his health to possibly become significantly impaired without the IV.

Lance got caught years later but not when he was able to mask! They found no PEDs.

Lance is not relevant.

"Anecdotal fallacy – using a personal experience or an isolated example instead of sound reasoning or compelling evidence."

Maywearther gave a partial urine sample before the IV, took more stringent tests than Lance, and took a blood and urine test the next day.

[ADP02]

Mayweather still had to pass 17 other drug and urine tests. Furthermore, is it logical to believe he would pay off USADA in order to get a retroactive TUE, as you mentioned? If that was the plan, logically wouldn't he have paid them off to either fake the testing or to simply stay away while he takes the IV? Come on now.

So did Lance Armstrong!!! You ask me why I bring his name up. Its because you talk like Lance Armstrong did when he was trying to prove that he was innocent.

You've been saying that I've said this is not possible for some time. I've never recalled saying that. I do recall saying the science behind the masking doesn't add up, and I stand by that. Anything is possible, but you are just accusing with no proof. Now you believe he had another IV right before the fight? Really? What do you have to base that on?

I just read the first part of this post. You keep on talking like its not possible but not directly saying it. You should just stop saying those kind of comments then I will stop saying that .... I can you use another word that you like .... it still means the same to me.

???? Are you serious? No IV given. Partial urine sample and blood given. Your conclusion is that he got even more lucky than on May 1st? Come on, man. This is really pathetic.

If you understand microdosing, then you would understand and stop saying "Come on"


"One of the doctors used by US Postal, Michele Ferrari - nicknamed Doctor Death by reporters - found ways of helping to reduce the EPO glowtime by using small "microdoses" injected directly into the vein, Hamilton says.

The cyclists could also drink large amounts of water, or inject themselves with saline solution, in order to accelerate the fading of the glow.
"

Floyd drank lots and used an IV and delayed the testing process!!!!

Lance has nothing to do with this! If anything, Lance serves as more proof that Mayweather wasn't cheating. Lance's case was the most groundbreaking and caused the testing agencies to really up their game. His samples have since retroactively tested positive. Mayweather is taking more stringent tests, and though you will just say he just found a new way to beat these new and better tests, you have NO PROOF!

They are not catching more now than before. How many boxers have USADA caught? Not many but the point is that the percentage of those caught is still low.

Again, do you realize that the 149 weight was after the IV? You keep saying this as if he drank water, ate a meal, then weighed in, then had the IV. The IV is included in his rehydration to 149.

The point is that he did not rehydrate back to 160s. It was just a few pounds.

FLoyd weighed 146. USADA said drink 3 cups per pound lost.

These are questions you should be asking someone else. It appears to me that the initial sample would have been given before he arrived for the weigh in, when the DCO initially went to his home. How much was it? I don't know. Do you? Maybe you can clear this up. And why would he have to discuss his HT levels? There was never any controversy about his HT levels, was there?

Simple question that you have never answered and probably still won't: Would combining dirty urine with clean urine make it more or less likely that the PED test will come out positive? There is a clear answer.



These tests can be retroactively tested for up to 8 years, I think I read somewhere. Furthermore, what are you accusing him of taking? There is better testing for EPO and new forms of EPO, there is CIR testing, there is the Biological Passport. Again, where is your proof of wrongdoing?

but Floyd's results were tainted due to the masking effects of delaying 5+ hours, drinking and using the IV!!!

The article says this:
" [Hauser] puts forth a very solid case that Mayweather was unlikely to have been dehydrated severely enough to necessitate IV rehydration. However, it requires a lot of logical gymnastics to jump from this point to the conclusion that he must, therefore, have been using the IV for more sinister purposes."

I have no problem with that statement. The authors says unlikely, not impossible, and it didn't touch on any of the evidence. Perhaps that is because the true evidence is in THE MEDICAL RECORDS!

No we do not and I mentioned why above. They said why and it does not add up!

I don't know what you are talking about, and neither do you. Where is your proof that he was back to 148 before the IV? Did you weigh him personally?


He was weighted AFTER the IV. I don't see why you have mistaken that over and over again.

You admitted and saw that Floyd was drinking quite a bit. That bottle was maybe 1.5 liters? Lets say he drank .9 liters that would make it about 2lbs

1 liter = 2.2lbs


Weighed in at 146 + 2 = 148.


Remember that Floyd could have eat and drink more than what we saw and admitted that he did. Sure, some of that could have been right after the IV but then why the IV?

[travestyny]

as has already been explained to you numerous times, nobody knows the exact time the infusion began or ended, but based on the timeline of when the sample was given, when the weigh in took place, etc, the IV would have been being administered six hours after USADA arrived.

doesn't mean it started being administered six hours after they arrived. we don't know when it started.

see how you avoid this post like a plague.

like how floyd avoid VADA like a plague

Seriously dude, I'm annoyed on his behalf. He already addressed your post.

[Rath]

So did Lance Armstrong!!! You ask me why I bring his name up. Its because you talk like Lance Armstrong did when he was trying to prove that he was innocent.



I just read the first part of this post. You keep on talking like its not possible but not directly saying it. You should just stop saying those kind of comments then I will stop saying that .... I can you use another word that you like .... it still means the same to me.



If you understand microdosing, then you would understand and stop saying "Come on"


"One of the doctors used by US Postal, Michele Ferrari - nicknamed Doctor Death by reporters - found ways of helping to reduce the EPO glowtime by using small "microdoses" injected directly into the vein, Hamilton says.

The cyclists could also drink large amounts of water, or inject themselves with saline solution, in order to accelerate the fading of the glow.
"

Floyd drank lots and used an IV and delayed the testing process!!!!






They are not catching more now than before. How many boxers have USADA caught? Not many but the point is that the percentage of those caught is still low.





The point is that he did not rehydrate back to 160s. It was just a few pounds.

FLoyd weighed 146. USADA said drink 3 cups per pound lost.







but Floyd's results were tainted due to the masking effects of delaying 5+ hours, drinking and using the IV!!!



No we do not and I mentioned why above. They said why and it does not add up!




You admitted and saw that Floyd was drinking quite a bit. That bottle was maybe 1.5 liters? Lets say he drank .9 liters that would make it about 2lbs

1 liter = 2.2lbs


Weighed in at 146 + 2 = 148.


Remember that Floyd could have eat and drink more than what we saw and admitted that he did. Sure, some of that could have been right after the IV but then why the IV?

he'll ignore this, he's not good in calculation.

i asked him how many drip/drop per second there are in a 50ml/minute flow rate and he can not answer that too.