Do you think Wlad would have kept this long unbeaten run with proper officiating?

[sunny31]

He always seems a little more vulnerable in the US simply because the refs crack down on the holding (not nearly enough though), which is his primary defensive technique, apart from moving his feet.

The Povetkin fight should have been a particular high point for his career but it is just a disgrace of a fight and if you can bring yourself to watch the first couple of rounds its actually comical. It was watching that again which compelled me to make this thread, as in those first few rounds Povetkin whizzes a few right hands just off the mark, really dangerous looking shots. In the first round alone he had been clinched 14 times many of those where Wlad puts his arms over his back and puts all his weight on him, and actually throws him to the floor also. The second round isn't much better in terms of clinching, and Wlad does obviously catch him with a tremendous left hook, which kind of took the pressure of himself from the ref and the crowd who were starting to really get on the refs back.

Plenty of fighters have bent the rules down the years and especially the very successful ones have had little tricks to gain advantages. But I don't think anyone has taken it to this level, not in my generation anyway, I really think he may have taken a loss or two more without applying these tactics to the level that he has done.

[CANELOLUJAH]

wlad is the greatest heavyweight of this era and a top 5 in any era

[beez721]

the only time his clinching was dq worthy was the povetkin fight so yes he would still be

[New England]

the only time his clinching was dq worthy was the povetkin fight so yes he would still be

i probably agree with this. i'd have to go through his fights again [which would make me want to die,] to find a spot where he legitimately deserved a disqualification.


still, points should be taken when a fighter holds excessively. he'd have to change his style if he were docked points. who knows if he gets clipped. wladimir himself will tell you that he's got a bad chin, particularly for a guy who has been in HW title fights for 10+ years. that's where the holding comes in.

[sunny31]

wlad is the greatest heavyweight of this era and a top 5 in any era

He is the greatest heavyweight of this era based on body of work I agree, although I could argue that what Vitali did in 6 rounds against Lewis trumps anything Wlad has done as a single headline accomplishment, and I would argue strongly that even though he is less skilled and not as physically talented as Wlad he was the better professional fighter of the two. The problem arrises that after those two, who have you got in this era?? Some good heavyweights? Absolutely. Any great ones? I don't think so.

That brings me nicely on to your second point. I am not sure how you can rank him top 5 all time, when he doesn't have one bonafide HOFer on his resume. There isn't one fighter on his resume that you can say, yes that guy is going in the Hall. That is a big black mark. Not only would I not have in the top 5, I would not have him in the top 10 either. Currently he is top 15 and really and truly he can't breach that top 10 without some great wins before its all said and done.

[Barcham]

i probably agree with this. i'd have to go through his fights again [which would make me want to die,] to find a spot where he legitimately deserved a disqualification.


still, points should be taken when a fighter holds excessively. he'd have to change his style if he were docked points. who knows if he gets clipped. wladimir himself will tell you that he's got a bad chin, particularly for a guy who has been in HW title fights for 10+ years. that's where the holding comes in.

Remember that when analyzing the next Ward fight.

[Redd Foxx]

I think he would, and that's what frustrates me to no end with him. He doesn't need that BS. So disappointing that he turns to it so often.

[sunny31]

the only time his clinching was dq worthy was the povetkin fight so yes he would still be

i probably agree with this. i'd have to go through his fights again [which would make me want to die,] to find a spot where he legitimately deserved a disqualification.


still, points should be taken when a fighter holds excessively. he'd have to change his style if he were docked points. who knows if he gets clipped. wladimir himself will tell you that he's got a bad chin, particularly for a guy who has been in HW title fights for 10+ years. that's where the holding comes in.

I think I may agree it would have only been Povetkin, but there is really no way to know for sure. I would have loved to have seen him deal with a guy like Povetkin in a legal way, it would have made the fight really interesting, I still think he might have walked Povetkin on to something, but at least it would have been a fair fight and he would get much more credit for it, putting the fact that he increases his chances of getting clipped to one side, he is almost doing himself a disservice fighting like that.

[New England]

Remember that when analyzing the next Ward fight.

how old are you?


i'm not a child, and i've got no issues criticizing andre ward. read my posts instead of looking at my avatar. i criticize andre ward all the time. i've done it quite a bit today. ward did some holding in the kessler fight particularly. if you look back at that fight, which none of you ever do, you'll see kessler "agreeing" to the clinches, and even leaning in to initiate some himself.


that said, ward's holding and wladimir's are different. wladimir wants a break. he wants the ref to separate them and move them apart.

ward fights inside. he's good at it. he keeps a hand free and works. he generally does not want the ref to break them apart.


ward's holding is seriously exaggerated for numerous reasons. chiefly, people don't like him. additionally, a lot of you guys have a very rudimentary understanding of boxing, and can't distinguish between the motivations of wladimir's holding, and ward's.

[sunny31]

I think he would, and that's what frustrates me to no end with him. He doesn't need that BS. So disappointing that he turns to it so often.

I think it is his safety net, not sure what kind of things would get exposed without it, plus I think it helps with his stamina as he uses it to rest. You may be right but he puts that question mark there.