Prime Foreman vs Prime Frazier

[Elroy1]

First of all, no way in hell does Tyson hit the hardest. Liston, Cooney, and Marciano (to name a few) could all hit harder than Tyson. And then, of course, you have George Foreman. I've actually heard people say Tyson hit harder than George. First of all, George lifted Joe Frazier off of his feet with and uppercut. And that was an uppercut with no body or ground behind it. That was Foreman just throwing his arm upwards. That's ****ing power. Tyson always used his full body when throwing an uppercut, but I never saw him knock anyone off of their feet! Joe Frazier, Joe Louis, and Jack Dempsey hit just as hard as Tyson. Frazier hit Chuvalo with a left hook that TORE HIS ****ING EYE OUT OF IT'S SOCKET. Tyson's left hook can't compare to the feroctiy and fire of Joe's left hook. Louis and Dempsey's handspeed is better than Tyson, with just as much power. Louis's uppercuts were much more brutal than Tyson's.

- When you compare the punching power of George Foreman to Mike Tyson's, fine, you are in common ground there. Both hit really bloody hard. But you are MORONIC to compare the power of 185lb Marciano, or even Sonny Liston to Mike's! Cooney? I seriously doubt that too, despite his size! Again! Foreman might have had a "stronger" punch than Mike in the sense that they screwed with balance more (a typical thing for push punchers), but they never had the snap and KO power of Mikes.

- Should I be THAT impressed with Foreman knocking Frazier off his feet? I already asserted that Foreman's type of power was of the sort to screw with balance. The fact I see is that Frazier got up 6! times and finished on his feet. I would expect ANY of the huge punchers of the 90's, including Tyson to send Frazier crashing to the deck. The difference being, Mike and Sanders would send him crashing there permanently!

- Agreed, Foreman had enormous arm punching power. Mike threw his punches from the floor. If your arguing Foreman might have been able to throw a harder punch if he threw them properly, that's something else. Fact is, he didn't!

- You never seen anybody knock someone off their feet? Did you sleep through the 80's as well as the 90's and 00's?

- Mike Tyson's power was crushing compared with Louis's, Dempsey's and Frazier's. LOOK at them! Then look at Mike!

- If Frazier hit Chuvalo so hard, why didn't he stop him!

- Mike Tyson's left hook was among the best there's ever been in boxing, TRASHING any thrown by Frazier. I could point to many, but review Tyson vs Gross. When did Frazier EVER throw a left hook like that! I just uploaded Frazier's highlight reel on another thread, not good! And that was in comparison to Alex bloody Leapai!

- Again, you'll have to show me an uppercut finish of Louis's but I already know Mikes was extraordinarily better. And anybody with a set of fogless eyes can see that.

[Elroy1]

This is revisionist, dishonest bull**** of the worse kind.
More reprehensible than that, it is outright deliberate lying to somehow justify the fact that for two years Tyson defended against a couple of unranked stiffs and denied title opportunites to his deserving challlengers.
It is outright lying.

Ok I take that back. Tyson did ravage some C grade opposition. He also went for the best ones too.

I don't see Franz Botha, Andrew Golota etc on Foreman's record or Lennox Lewis's.

The 2 REALLY good opponents he fought were Morrison and Holyfield, who he lost too. And the only reason he fought them was because (a) Morrison's chin had been exposed and George figured he had a good chance to crack it, and (b) Holyfield was considered a very small HW whom didn't pose George much punch threat. And that's IT!

George was shrewd businessman in and out of the ring. Tyson WANTED to be the #1 again, not just steal a trinket where there was an avenue.

[Elroy1]

same reason why wlad wont repond to briggs

For sure!

[Showtime..]

For sure!

Why & how did Vitali beat Briggs but Wlad "can't and wont"?

Also, would you consider Provodnikov a soft puncher because he can't knock people out? (Frazier comparison)
No, you wouldn't. It's technique based that usually gets the knockout, not as much power based. Tyson had the technique for a knockout down, his power just made it that much more brutal. Frazier was more of a bullier.

[Elroy1]

Why & how did Vitali beat Briggs but Wlad "can't and wont"?

Also, would you consider Provodnikov a soft puncher because he can't knock people out? (Frazier comparison)
No, you wouldn't. It's technique based that usually gets the knockout, not as much power based. Tyson had the technique for a knockout down, his power just made it that much more brutal. Frazier was more of a bullier.

On the Frazier thing, that's fine when your opponents are bummy (Chuvalo) or CW (195lbers) or both.

But when your comparing him with a real HW puncher like Foreman with a solid record, or a real HW puncher with real skills (like Tyson) then suddenly, Frazier's "bullying" style, doesn't seem to work so well.

As for the Briggs situation, I don't really understand???

Vitali took on an aged but steroid pumped Briggs years ago who was THEN mainly relevant because he was famous. Vitali dished him the worst beating of his life to the point where he is severely brain damaged and should never be allowed near a boxing ring again by any health authority.

Now, further down the track, his skills are eroded to the point of journeyman status with no relevance in the HW division whatsoever, beats a few E level fighters and wants to take on the HW champion of the world.

Why would Wladimir want to potentially murder somebody, or put them in a home/hospital for the rest of their life, who is nothing but target practice, with absolutely zero chance of winning, and would have a very negative effect on his record as opposed to other relevant fighter who should get a shot.

What's next? 50+ yr old Holyfield comes broke out of retirement demanding a title bout on no grounds either? I think not!

[abdelfadeel]

- When you compare the punching power of George Foreman to Mike Tyson's, fine, you are in common ground there. Both hit really bloody hard. But you are MORONIC to compare the power of 185lb Marciano, or even Sonny Liston to Mike's! Cooney? I seriously doubt that too, despite his size! Again! Foreman might have had a "stronger" punch than Mike in the sense that they screwed with balance more (a typical thing for push punchers), but they never had the snap and KO power of Mikes.

- Should I be THAT impressed with Foreman knocking Frazier off his feet? I already asserted that Foreman's type of power was of the sort to screw with balance. The fact I see is that Frazier got up 6! times and finished on his feet. I would expect ANY of the huge punchers of the 90's, including Tyson to send Frazier crashing to the deck. The difference being, Mike and Sanders would send him crashing there permanently!

- Agreed, Foreman had enormous arm punching power. Mike threw his punches from the floor. If your arguing Foreman might have been able to throw a harder punch if he threw them properly, that's something else. Fact is, he didn't!

- You never seen anybody knock someone off their feet? Did you sleep through the 80's as well as the 90's and 00's?

- Mike Tyson's power was crushing compared with Louis's, Dempsey's and Frazier's. LOOK at them! Then look at Mike!

- If Frazier hit Chuvalo so hard, why didn't he stop him!

- Mike Tyson's left hook was among the best there's ever been in boxing, TRASHING any thrown by Frazier. I could point to many, but review Tyson vs Gross. When did Frazier EVER throw a left hook like that! I just uploaded Frazier's highlight reel on another thread, not good! And that was in comparison to Alex bloody Leapai!

- Again, you'll have to show me an uppercut finish of Louis's but I already know Mikes was extraordinarily better. And anybody with a set of fogless eyes can see that.

just because you don't way alot doesn't mean you don't hit hard. look at shavers. "If Frazier hit Chuvalo so hard, why didn't he stop him!" If you've actually watched the fight (which I doubt you have) you would see Frazier did stop Chuvalo. Liston did hit harder than Tyson, Ask Johnny Tocco who managed them both he will tell you the same thing, you said Marciano was smaller so he didn't hit harder than Liston, Tyson's also smaller than Liston so by your logic You have to say Liston ht harder than Tyson. If you are unwilling to accept this, you're a hypocrite.

[////]

So I think we have a consensus agreement that Frazier never beats Foreman.

[abdelfadeel]

- When you compare the punching power of George Foreman to Mike Tyson's, fine, you are in common ground there. Both hit really bloody hard. But you are MORONIC to compare the power of 185lb Marciano, or even Sonny Liston to Mike's! Cooney? I seriously doubt that too, despite his size! Again! Foreman might have had a "stronger" punch than Mike in the sense that they screwed with balance more (a typical thing for push punchers), but they never had the snap and KO power of Mikes.

- Should I be THAT impressed with Foreman knocking Frazier off his feet? I already asserted that Foreman's type of power was of the sort to screw with balance. The fact I see is that Frazier got up 6! times and finished on his feet. I would expect ANY of the huge punchers of the 90's, including Tyson to send Frazier crashing to the deck. The difference being, Mike and Sanders would send him crashing there permanently!

- Agreed, Foreman had enormous arm punching power. Mike threw his punches from the floor. If your arguing Foreman might have been able to throw a harder punch if he threw them properly, that's something else. Fact is, he didn't!

- You never seen anybody knock someone off their feet? Did you sleep through the 80's as well as the 90's and 00's?

- Mike Tyson's power was crushing compared with Louis's, Dempsey's and Frazier's. LOOK at them! Then look at Mike!

- If Frazier hit Chuvalo so hard, why didn't he stop him!

- Mike Tyson's left hook was among the best there's ever been in boxing, TRASHING any thrown by Frazier. I could point to many, but review Tyson vs Gross. When did Frazier EVER throw a left hook like that! I just uploaded Frazier's highlight reel on another thread, not good! And that was in comparison to Alex bloody Leapai!

- Again, you'll have to show me an uppercut finish of Louis's but I already know Mikes was extraordinarily better. And anybody with a set of fogless eyes can see that.

So I think we have a consensus agreement that Frazier never beats Foreman.

I disagree but at the end of the day It's my opinion

[Long jabber]

I just noticed your thread topic, and then I noticed you devoted many lines of text to it, but admittedly didn't read anymore than a few words...

Because it doesn't matter.

Foreman was literally JUST a puncher. And I mean we are talking about, in 80 odd champions to date, one of the least skilled at boxing of all the hw champs (considering 70's Foreman, 90's was obviously more skilled.

Even still, no matter what game plan he brang and no matter how hard he tried, Frazier could never survive Foreman.

I mean to give Frazier credit, he would have been champion in previous eras. Frazier vs Louis would have been fair to question and I'd be leaning toward giving it to Frazier. But the times and the division were changing.

Frazier was not TODAY what we would consider a good fighter. Truth is, he would never even be a professional boxer as we would describe one today.

Foreman would simply batter any version of Frazier into submission, under any circumstances!

foremoan lasted with a prime holyfield after how many years of retirement?

that alone proves foreman was more than puncher. youre so delusional

[abdelfadeel]

foremoan lasted with a prime holyfield after how many years of retirement?

that alone proves foreman was more than puncher. youre so delusional

Exactly and Tyson couldn't last with a past prime Holyfield.