Prime Foreman vs Prime Frazier

[VG_Addict]

OK, here's a question for the people who claim that modern fighters are better, because of better nutrition/better training techniques/etc:

If people, and thus fighters, are really so much healthier and better than they were in the past, why are there so many fat people today?

[abdelfadeel]

OK, here's a question for the people who claim that modern fighters are better, because of better nutrition/better training techniques/etc:

If people, and thus fighters, are really so much healthier and better than they were in the past, why are there so many fat people today?

Thank you.

[////]

OK, here's a question for the people who claim that modern fighters are better, because of better nutrition/better training techniques/etc:

If people, and thus fighters, are really so much healthier and better than they were in the past, why are there so many fat people today?

Well that's pretty easy to answer. The average person isn't on the same scientific nutrition regimen as Wlad and co (much less their exercise regimen), so they're not taking advantage of those advances.

It's like asking why most guys have become such wusses when we've made great advances in special forces combat tactics... Average people are not representative sample groups for this correlation.

[Elroy1]

just because you don't way alot doesn't mean you don't hit hard. look at shavers. "If Frazier hit Chuvalo so hard, why didn't he stop him!" If you've actually watched the fight (which I doubt you have) you would see Frazier did stop Chuvalo. Liston did hit harder than Tyson, Ask Johnny Tocco who managed them both he will tell you the same thing, you said Marciano was smaller so he didn't hit harder than Liston, Tyson's also smaller than Liston so by your logic You have to say Liston ht harder than Tyson. If you are unwilling to accept this, you're a hypocrite.

Just because your small doesn't mean you can't hit hard. Sure of course. I've never once claimed that size is everything.

But... The heavier you are, without even checking punch qualities, the chances are the harder you hit, and..

The heavier you are, with regards to punch qualities, all else being equal, the harder you hit, and...

Mike Tyson was much bigger than Louis, Liston, Marciano, Frazier, Shaver and (insert nostalgic bum here lol), he had an immensely stronger core and everything else than them AND had far superior punch qualities, therefore hit SAVAGELY harder., and...

You can see on video that these guys didn't hit a quarter as dangerously as Tyson, even a simple picture would convince most of it's impossibility, and...

Statistically, we can see clearly from tables if you'll like me to produce them, that Tyson's KO performance is far higher than these guys, particularly with relevance to how well he holds his KO power too the heftier+better his opponents got.

It's clear... Anybody who really believes Mike Tyson could not hit harder than your old school favourites is high!

[Elroy1]

OK, here's a question for the people who claim that modern fighters are better, because of better nutrition/better training techniques/etc:

If people, and thus fighters, are really so much healthier and better than they were in the past, why are there so many fat people today?

Additionally to studs relevant comment here,

There is an obesity epidemic in America and Australia, correct.

There is also a health and fitness revolution too, where there are buffs everywhere now. In fact this trend in Australia is reversing!

Hardly anybody smokes anymore.

So it isn't clear cut.

People are more comfortable now, producing some lazy fatties, but ppl are also more image conscious now too producing more athleties too.

Of course, none of this is representative of pro athletes.

Remember, there were fat boxers then and now. But there were never boxers then as fit as there are now!

[Elroy1]

foremoan lasted with a prime holyfield after how many years of retirement?

that alone proves foreman was more than puncher. youre so delusional

Show me a single instance in the Holyfield fight where the vastly 70+ fight experienced, 260+ lb Foreman does anything remarkable apart from being big, strong and patient against Holyfield?

[abdelfadeel]

Just because your small doesn't mean you can't hit hard. Sure of course. I've never once claimed that size is everything.

But... The heavier you are, without even checking punch qualities, the chances are the harder you hit, and..

The heavier you are, with regards to punch qualities, all else being equal, the harder you hit, and...

Mike Tyson was much bigger than Louis, Liston, Marciano, Frazier, Shaver and (insert nostalgic bum here lol), he had an immensely stronger core and everything else than them AND had far superior punch qualities, therefore hit SAVAGELY harder., and...

You can see on video that these guys didn't hit a quarter as dangerously as Tyson, even a simple picture would convince most of it's impossibility, and...

Statistically, we can see clearly from tables if you'll like me to produce them, that Tyson's KO performance is far higher than these guys, particularly with relevance to how well he holds his KO power too the heftier+better his opponents got.

It's clear... Anybody who really believes Mike Tyson could not hit harder than your old school favourites is high!

No you never claimed size is everything but you implied it. Tyson much wasn't bigger than Liston. Liston was bigger and stronger than Tyson. as for"It's clear... Anybody who really believes Mike Tyson could not hit harder than your old school favourites is high!" so 99 percent of boxing experts are high?

[Elroy1]

No you never claimed size is everything but you implied it. Tyson much wasn't bigger than Liston. Liston was bigger and stronger than Tyson. as for"It's clear... Anybody who really believes Mike Tyson could not hit harder than your old school favourites is high!" so 99 percent of boxing experts are high?

So your saying THIS Sonny Liston...

http://boxingmemories.com/wp-content/flagallery/sonny-liston/sonny-liston-36.jpg

Is bigger and more powerful both, than THIS Mike Tyson...

http://boxingjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/tyson-boxing-dvds.jpg

Well that's a very heroic suggestion But not especially true.

For a starters, I have never once heard anybody claim that Liston was either larger or more powerful than Mike Tyson except from that special group of boxing fans that I like to call the "OTNB" community. And even then from only a select few of the more shameless ones!

Notice in the pics that although Sonny and Mike share common weights at times, Tyson was ALWAYS far more cut than Liston ever was at any point of their careers. Liston is fluidy compared with Tyson, who was fined down to an equivalent weight.

But let's forget the quality of weight (which obviously favours Tyson) and analyse the competitive sizes of both fighters..

Turns out that Liston, started his career as a 198lb cruiser (about the size of a 15! year old Tyson), weighed an average of 211lbs (what about cruisers weigh today on fight night) and weighed 215 for the majority of the rest of his fights.

Conversely, Tyson was always around 215-220 and far stockier than Liston because he was ripped, and cause he was an inch or so shorter. Tyson from about 1990-2000s gained significant weight and came in the 230s even on occasion!

Sonny Liston KO highlight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIIx9h7yhaw

Mike Tyson KO highlight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z9mbQk58B0

As you can see from the videos, Liston is slow as a wet wig, highly uncoordinated and does not have the same mechanics as Tyson. As for Tyson, the clips speak for themselves!

You will also find that Tyson KOed, the much heavier opponents (by about 20lbs on average) and the better quality opponents (Liston fought more bums than any other champion of all time).

You know what I would say to both your assertions?

Myth exposed!

Myth exposed!

[abdelfadeel]

So your saying THIS Sonny Liston...

http://boxingmemories.com/wp-content/flagallery/sonny-liston/sonny-liston-36.jpg

Is bigger and more powerful both, than THIS Mike Tyson...

http://boxingjunkies.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/tyson-boxing-dvds.jpg

Well that's a very heroic suggestion But not especially true.

For a starters, I have never once heard anybody claim that Liston was either larger or more powerful than Mike Tyson except from that special group of boxing fans that I like to call the "OTNB" community. And even then from only a select few of the more shameless ones!

Notice in the pics that although Sonny and Mike share common weights at times, Tyson was ALWAYS far more cut than Liston ever was at any point of their careers. Liston is fluidy compared with Tyson, who was fined down to an equivalent weight.

But let's forget the quality of weight (which obviously favours Tyson) and analyse the competitive sizes of both fighters..

Turns out that Liston, started his career as a 198lb cruiser (about the size of a 15! year old Tyson), weighed an average of 211lbs (what about cruisers weigh today on fight night) and weighed 215 for the majority of the rest of his fights.

Conversely, Tyson was always around 215-220 and far stockier than Liston because he was ripped, and cause he was an inch or so shorter. Tyson from about 1990-2000s gained significant weight and came in the 230s even on occasion!

Sonny Liston KO highlight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HIIx9h7yhaw

Mike Tyson KO highlight

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1z9mbQk58B0

As you can see from the videos, Liston is slow as a wet wig, highly uncoordinated and does not have the same mechanics as Tyson. As for Tyson, the clips speak for themselves!

You will also find that Tyson KOed, the much heavier opponents (by about 20lbs on average) and the better quality opponents (Liston fought more bums than any other champion of all time).

You know what I would say to both your assertions?

Myth exposed!

Myth exposed!

Sonny Liston was much bigger than Tyson. He had a bigger chest reach bicep forearm and wrist not to mention he was much tougher than Tyson and had a much tougher childhood. Liston would've kicked Mike's ass. Weight doesn't mean you're bigger than someone, tyson weighed 221 for berbick, foreman weighed 217 for Frazier. Was Tyson bigger than Foreman no? So until then the only person who's been exposed is you.

[Elroy1]

Sonny Liston was much bigger than Tyson. He had a bigger chest reach bicep forearm and wrist not to mention he was much tougher than Tyson and had a much tougher childhood. Liston would've kicked Mike's ass. Weight doesn't mean you're bigger than someone, tyson weighed 221 for berbick, foreman weighed 217 for Frazier. Was Tyson bigger than Foreman no? So until then the only person who's been exposed is you.

Dude, even without checking I KNOW that Tyson's measurements were larger than Liston's. You can't be more ripped and shorter and of heftier weight combined without having larger muscles in general. And it's clear to see for everybody.

Young Foreman had big arms, but other than that he was relatively SKINNY you idiot! He was much taller than Mike is all! Foreman WAS a MUCH bigger boxer than Mike over whole career, but that's because in the 90's he was fattened up AND bodybuilt.

There are essentially 2 versions of Foreman...

The tall, heavy for the day but small nowadays Foreman of the 70's who was faster, more aggressive, but with a somewhat mediocre chin and who could barely even box..

And the vastly experienced, measured and smarter boxer of the 90's who was even stronger and immensely heftier and with an iron chin, but who'se speed and workrate were obviously weathered with age.

If you could combine the features of both Foreman's together, then sure, Tyson would be beat. Unfortunately such a Foreman never actually existed. Only in the minds of OTNB's.

As for who had a tougher childhood? I would say Tyson had a pretty rough childhood personally. Not that that has ANYTHING to do with boxing performance.

If you want to know what would happen to Liston should he have fought Tyson? Watch Tyson vs Scaff!

Liston never once won any fight against what we would today regard as a decent opponent.

His opponents consisted, without exception of cruisers and bums and guys coming off of loss streaks and featherfists and always a combination of these qualities too!

The only time he met what today would consider a good quality cruiser sized HW... He threw in the towel and took a dive!

He failed to KO and then took a dive against chinny little featherfist Clay

Get out of here with your moronic comparisons!

What's next? Jockeys are bigger and stronger than WWE Wrestlers?