who is the number 1 super middleweight in the word-FROCH OR WARD

[LacedUp]

So let me understand this. You crap on Dennis Grachev who argubaly beat Bute, beat Erdei and beat Sillah, but you're up here mentioning guys like Kenny Anderson and Paul Smith??

Even at this point in DeGale's career, 3 years later, he's still a contender who's lone step up in competition was a loss to George Groves. Let me ask you this, who's DeGale's best win, right now?

Then you down Chad Dawson and say he'll never be a HOF'er. I think that remains to be seen. Especially given he was one win away (i.e. Andre Ward) in being a bonafide HOF'er. We'll see if he can get a similar win later in his career. But for you to dismiss Dawson as not being borderline and crap on Grachev/George the way you are and give so much credit to Paul Smith and Kenny Anderson is transparently funny and thus making your motives quite clear.

Dude, you are really putting words into my mouth that I never spoke. I've never "hyped" up anyone on Groves' resume - I'm just stating that he's fought better competition than Rodriguez. Which he has. He's fought guys who were top british level, European level, guys with great amateur backgrounds, veterans and bit-part contenders.

Rodriguez's one win over Grachev who put up a decent losing effort to an absolutely shattered and horrified Bute, doesn't change that

Chad Dawson will never get into the HOF, I think you need to accept this right now. Ever. I don't see what it has to do with Groves/Grachev, but whatever makes sense to you.

You are correct about this. You can fairly argue the Dawson win would have been more impressive if it was at 175. I didn't deny it.

Even if that is the case-my point still stands that Froch nor groves would have been approved by HBO for Dawson because of where they were.

Froch has admirably worked his way up the ladder and then maintained his spot by beating those beneath him. But he will not be the best SMW until Ward officially retires. Why? Because I saw them fight each other.

Imagine if someone tried to argue andre dirrell is better than froch if he keeps winning and froch is off for a year?

It would have been far more impressing, but i'm not hating on Ward for making the fight at 168, because everyone are trying to get an advantage to themselves - and Dawson did say he could make 168.

I think Froch would have been approved by Ward/Dawson after his performance against Bute - remember it wasn't long after HBO started picking up most of his fights.

Oh I'll never claim Froch is the better fighter, but Ward simply isn't fighting and Froch is beating top contenders and other champions - which for me says that he could overtake his spot if it keeps going.

As I said in the beginning of this thread though, I have Ward #1.

[boliodogs]

Ward is much better and he proved that where it counts, in the ring. He easily beat Froch when Froch was much younger and better. The UK judge scored it 118 to 110 for Ward but you conveniently left that detail out. Rodriguez was an undefeated top contender. No fighter ranking organization is going to rank Froch over Ward so keep on dreaming.

[New England]

Sorry I have to break it to you, but you don't need a great resume to have a better one than Edwin Rodriguez

I've never claimed Groves' resume is great, even good. Just better than Rodriguez's.

the brits talk about the rodriguez win like it's worse than being inactive. "ward has done nothing since he beat froch," is what you hear.

he and goves have comparable resume. groves almost knocked froch out, and froch needed a rematch to get a clear win.


their attitude toward the two opponents is evidence of bias. there's no getting around it. the same thing happens with groves win over a weight drained glen johnson, and froch's win over a weight drained yusaf mack.


just accept that you british fanboys are the most biased collection of sillynannies in boxing.

[LacedUp]

I just proved to you how it's not.

Rodriguez' opponents are clearly better with a more proven track record than Groves opponents.

You say DeGale has a great amateur background and mentioned the EBU, but you fail to realize that Erdei was an undefeated former WBC Cruiserweight Champion and WBO Light Heavyweight Champion before losing to Dennis Grachev.

My fault, I guess Erdei and Grachev don't match up with Kenny Anderson.

Dude you didn't prove shyt

Did Edwin Rodriguez suddenly beat Erdei who first of all had his prime about ten years ago and secondly was facing the 3rd division players of the light-heavyweight division? And also thirdly was retired before fighting Grachev?

[KevinHenry007]

Dude, you are really putting words into my mouth that I never spoke. I've never "hyped" up anyone on Groves' resume - I'm just stating that he's fought better competition than Rodriguez. Which he has. He's fought guys who were top british level, European level, guys with great amateur backgrounds, veterans and bit-part contenders.

Rodriguez's one win over Grachev who put up a decent losing effort to an absolutely shattered and horrified Bute, doesn't change that

Chad Dawson will never get into the HOF, I think you need to accept this right now. Ever. I don't see what it has to do with Groves/Grachev, but whatever makes sense to you. .

Groves has not faced better competition than Rodriguez. I understand that doesn't fit your motive, but I've made it abundantly clear.

If you praise guys like Adamu, how can you not give Rosinsky, Maderna and Jason Escalara praise as well? And the Don George that Rodriguez fought?

Again, what's James DeGale's best win?

I'll ask you this again. Who is James DeGale's best win? Forget about 3 years ago, I'm talking right now as I type this. Who's his best win today?

[New England]

Dude, you are really putting words into my mouth that I never spoke. I've never "hyped" up anyone on Groves' resume - I'm just stating that he's fought better competition than Rodriguez. Which he has. He's fought guys who were top british level, European level, guys with great amateur backgrounds, veterans and bit-part contenders.

Rodriguez's one win over Grachev who put up a decent losing effort to an absolutely shattered and horrified Bute, doesn't change that

Chad Dawson will never get into the HOF, I think you need to accept this right now. Ever. I don't see what it has to do with Groves/Grachev, but whatever makes sense to you.



It would have been far more impressing, but i'm not hating on Ward for making the fight at 168, because everyone are trying to get an advantage to themselves - and Dawson did say he could make 168.

I think Froch would have been approved by Ward/Dawson after his performance against Bute - remember it wasn't long after HBO started picking up most of his fights.

Oh I'll never claim Froch is the better fighter, but Ward simply isn't fighting and Froch is beating top contenders and other champions - which for me says that he could overtake his spot if it keeps going.

As I said in the beginning of this thread though, I have Ward #1.

this is exactly what i'm talking about. thank you for illustrating it so beautifully.

ward beats rodriguez, and he "isn't even fighting."

froch beats groves [who almost knocks him out in the process,] and he's "beating top contenders."


you can't make this stuff up. you just can't. you don't even need to. they do it for you. give a brit a soap box, and ask him to talk boxing, and hit record. comedy gold.

[The Big Dunn]

^^^^ The truth.

The question is how long it should take for Froch to surpass Ward's win over him. That's the key in this debate as I see it.

If that's the truth then have some integrity. The question should be does froch get to supplant ward as the best SMW because ward has reduced his activity while trying to get a better deal?

Ward last fought 8 months ago and won. Froch beat a guy ward beat, beat mack who clearly wasn't good. Credit for the Bute win.( does the bute win count as much since it was in England? does Carl have to rematch bute in Canada?) rematched groves because the first fight was seen as a premature stoppage.

The answer is no.

[LacedUp]

this is exactly what i'm talking about. thank you for illustrating it so beautifully.

ward beats rodriguez, and he "isn't even fighting."

froch beats groves [who almost knocks him out in the process,] and he's "beating top contenders."


you can't make this stuff up. you just can't. you don't even need to. they do it for you. give a brit a soap box, and ask him to talk boxing, and hit record. comedy gold.

Top contenders is not just Groves though, you can add Bute and Kessler #1 and #2 respectively at the time of the fights. Groves was ranked #5 when he fought him.

It's not worse than staying inactive, but weight drained Dawson and Rodriguez is not better than Kessler, Bute, Mack & Groves x2 in the same time span.

[The Big Dunn]

Dude, you are really putting words into my mouth that I never spoke. I've never "hyped" up anyone on Groves' resume - I'm just stating that he's fought better competition than Rodriguez. Which he has. He's fought guys who were top british level, European level, guys with great amateur backgrounds, veterans and bit-part contenders.

Rodriguez's one win over Grachev who put up a decent losing effort to an absolutely shattered and horrified Bute, doesn't change that

Chad Dawson will never get into the HOF, I think you need to accept this right now. Ever. I don't see what it has to do with Groves/Grachev, but whatever makes sense to you.



It would have been far more impressing, but i'm not hating on Ward for making the fight at 168, because everyone are trying to get an advantage to themselves - and Dawson did say he could make 168.

I think Froch would have been approved by Ward/Dawson after his performance against Bute - remember it wasn't long after HBO started picking up most of his fights.

Oh I'll never claim Froch is the better fighter, but Ward simply isn't fighting and Froch is beating top contenders and other champions - which for me says that he could overtake his spot if it keeps going.

As I said in the beginning of this thread though, I have Ward #1.

ok. I just think its not fair to be a revisionist with Dawson. Ward took his credibility and reputation away and that counts. To retroactively say or even suggest froch and groves would've beaten Dawson at that point is patently unfair.

[KevinHenry007]

Dude you didn't prove shyt

Did Edwin Rodriguez suddenly beat Erdei who first of all had his prime about ten years ago and secondly was facing the 3rd division players of the light-heavyweight division? And also thirdly was retired before fighting Grachev?

Ok, so now you're crapping on Grachev's win over Erdei, but a few pages ago you named Glen Johnson coming off 3 consecutive losses as being a part of Groves' resume, all the while naming Kenny Anderson and Paul Smith?

Again, for the 4th time, who's James DeGale's best win because the James DeGale win is clearly holding so much weight in your book.

I can tell you who Grachev's two best wins are and I can tell you who George's best win is.

Who's DeGales?