Is Joe Frazier really an ATG?

[Scott9945]

Yes sorry, I pulled up the wrong table...

I was considering natural HW's not former Cruisers but alas, the point still stands.

These OTHER bigger guys that Frazier fought for instance like

Turnbow (8-13)
Stander (37-21)
Smith (11-7)

Can you see the difference between these guys and the larger guys of subsequent eras?

They were ALL bums, wake up Scott!

None of those opponents have any relevance today whatsoever!

The problem with nostalgists like you is you can only focus on 1 thing at a time, like "oh but they fought big guys too" or "oh but this little guy way good quality".

You always fail to look at the whole picture.

Anybody with decent skills was piss weak
Anybody with appreciable strength was a full on bum.

That^ approxiamately sums up the AVERGAGE 1970's boxer!

Since you were the one with the 225 lb criteria, why do you omit the fact that Frazier never lost even once to an opponent 225 or over? So he was unbeaten against a size that you claim (with no facts to back anything up) was too much for him.

Keep blowing smoke Leroy. I can see right through it.

[Elroy1]

After watching Fury get dropped hard against Steve Cunningham, who could argue with that?

But Fury will beat the extremely mediocre Chisora.

Fury got dropped by the Cunningham shot because he clowned around, dropped his guard and ran full pelt toward Steve trying to scare him or something and caught an overhand right on the way forward. After that he settled down to destroy Cunningham easy.

Cunningham, more athletic than any limit weight boxer of the 1970's let alone a HW one and superior skilled to all, was DISPATCHED by Fury.

Take Frazier, put him on a heavy training program, pump him full of steroids for about 5 years, give him a chin graft and a hard punch, make him taller, give him an eye transplant and THERE'S ya Dereck Chisora!

[Elroy1]

Since you were the one with the 225 lb criteria, why do you omit the fact that Frazier never lost even once to an opponent 225 or over? So he was unbeaten against a size that you claim (with no facts to back anything up) was too much for him.

Keep blowing smoke Leroy. I can see right through it.

Oh yeah sure

So all these old timers that barely fought anybody of a certain size, their credibility against anybody up to those weights is unbeaten.

You do realise it's clear from analysing all records in general that the heavier ones opponents get, the more the performance drops against them right?

Kind of protects us from such logical fallacies.

You moron!

[Larry the boss]

Ok clicked on the thread and read Tyson Fury compared to Joe Frazier

[Scott9945]

Oh yeah sure

So all these old timers that barely fought anybody of a certain size, their credibility against anybody up to those weights is unbeaten.

You do realise it's clear from analysing all records in general that the heavier ones opponents get, the more the performance drops against them right?

Kind of protects us from such logical fallacies.

You moron!

It always comes down to size with you Leroy. And you have the gall to present that as evidence. Just shameful really.

[Elroy1]

It always comes down to size with you Leroy. And you have the gall to present that as evidence. Just shameful really.

False!

It comes down to overall QUALITY.

The total package.

For a nostalgist fool like you, you can only focus on one thing at a time. But this guy had better stamina than this one, this guy had better footwork that this one etc.

For me it's, "the total package that was Fury, couldn't fail to knock out Frazier in round 1".

It's the "big picture"

And individual attributes are more irrelevant than actual RESULTS (like win/loss, KO etc)

Joe Frazier having great will and heart is irrelevant if he lies KO'ed on the floor from Foreman for example.

Ken Norton's skills are worthless for discussion if he lies KO'ed on the floor from an absolute bum like Shaver for instance.

This is what seperates us!

[Dr Rumack]

Ok clicked on the thread and read Tyson Fury compared to Joe Frazier

Tyson Fury would smoke Joe Frazier, and then sing him a lullaby.

[Elroy1]

Put it another way Scott...

Would a naturally 200+ guy like Mel Tunbow with a record of 8 wins and 13 loses be able to compete at HW today?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...turnbow01b.jpg

Look at the decked Turnbow on the right, he may have been a 200+ opponent but even then, he is not the same as a 200_ opponent as we see them today! If you know what I mean, hulking muscles and all that.

But let's leave the size thing out (even though it's extremely important) and concentrate on the quality of Turnbow..

8-13. Would this guy ever receive a title shot today? Would he ever fight a top contender like Wilder or Arreola or Jennings?

Of course not!

The news flash for you is this...

In the 70's it was perfectly ACCEPTABLE for guys like Frazier, Liston, Foreman and Ali, to heavily pad their record up with opponents that have barely won a fight in their lives! Total bums!

Whereas today,

Wladimir, Stiverne and the rest of the top10-15.. Are not ALLOWED to fight bums!

They can't! The media will be on their asses immediately!

Also in the 70's it was perfectly acceptable to get your head punched in and lose, they'd be excused anyway, like Norton/Shaver, Frazier/Foreman, Ali/Spinks.

Today, even a single loss and a fighter could be labelled a bum!

It's ridiculous!

WK's fight against LEapai for instance, Alex was labelled a bum. But this guy was a hulking powerhouse with good chin and massive punch, coming off a win against rated Boytsov with similar credentials too. He always boxed against 200+ opposition of considerable better strength and quality than Frazier did and only lost 4 times in the process!

Now I am not saying that Leapai was a good opponent for Wlad or good at all. I am highlighting that this being a "bum" today would have been considered a top rated opponent of the 70's by far! Likely ****ing out most everyone else!

[jas]

[Scott9945]

Put it another way Scott...

Would a naturally 200+ guy like Mel Tunbow with a record of 8 wins and 13 loses be able to compete at HW today?

http://www.ootpdevelopments.com/boar...turnbow01b.jpg

Look at the decked Turnbow on the right, he may have been a 200+ opponent but even then, he is not the same as a 200_ opponent as we see them today! If you know what I mean, hulking muscles and all that.

But let's leave the size thing out (even though it's extremely important) and concentrate on the quality of Turnbow..

8-13. Would this guy ever receive a title shot today? Would he ever fight a top contender like Wilder or Arreola or Jennings?

Of course not!

The news flash for you is this...

In the 70's it was perfectly ACCEPTABLE for guys like Frazier, Liston, Foreman and Ali, to heavily pad their record up with opponents that have barely won a fight in their lives! Total bums!

Whereas today,

Wladimir, Stiverne and the rest of the top10-15.. Are not ALLOWED to fight bums!

They can't! The media will be on their asses immediately!

Also in the 70's it was perfectly acceptable to get your head punched in and lose, they'd be excused anyway, like Norton/Shaver, Frazier/Foreman, Ali/Spinks.

Today, even a single loss and a fighter could be labelled a bum!

It's ridiculous!

WK's fight against LEapai for instance, Alex was labelled a bum. But this guy was a hulking powerhouse with good chin and massive punch, coming off a win against rated Boytsov with similar credentials too. He always boxed against 200+ opposition of considerable better strength and quality than Frazier did and only lost 4 times in the process!

Now I am not saying that Leapai was a good opponent for Wlad or good at all. I am highlighting that this being a "bum" today would have been considered a top rated opponent of the 70's by far! Likely ****ing out most everyone else!

The irony there is just so ****ing rich. Wilder has basically fought 32 Mel Turnbows (who Frazier fought in just his 5th pro fight). And Leapai and Chisora would barely be good enough to spar with Joe Frazier.

The difference is that you look at statistics and apply size to validate your whack theories. Experienced fans use their own eyes to see the class differences in these fighters. My advice, watch more fights, read less boxrec.