Is Joe Frazier really an ATG?

[LacedUp]

Listen to me very carefully,

Ross Puritty was a BUM! He was skill-wise, not very good. But he was one very strong, very tough and very powerful bum. Ross only won/did well against the boxers of his era, when they made mistakes. But he always lasted the distance because he had probably the hardest chin of all time.

The problem is, is that if you insert Ross into the 70's, things are different for him! I don't think that Ross was more skilled than the skilled 70's HW's, but someone like Frazier, who was ALSO unskilled and could not properly defend himself would be at some point caught by Puritty!

Frazier was EASY to hit. He was a punching bag! Foreman could barely even box in the 70's and managed to connect with him easily. As if Ross couldn't hit Frazier.

The thing with weight, is that it makes a big difference even when your opponent is a bum! That is exactly WHY there are weight ranges!

Puritty's strength, power and chin are so good he can walk through Frazier (who'se strategy was to walk forward anyway!) and doesn't NEED tremendous skills to beat him.

This is what makes Puritty more competitive against the 70's HW's than today, because the 70's HW's were defensively less skilled (there was no pressure for them to be because the punches weren't as hard) and they were so much weaker, easy to KO for big hitters!

Why do you think Foreman compiled such a great KO record? Did you really think it was because he was still the hardest hitter that ever lived? Or maybe it had something to do with his opponents! Take a look at the facts!

Holyfield fought Lewis, Tyson & Bowe yet still says Foreman hit the hardest.

I'll take that over your pathetic, agenda pro klitschko driven bs.

[////]

Didn't stop the commission from accepting Wlad vs Byrd or Wlad vs Haye or Wlad vs Chambers, or Vitali vs Adamek etc or the countless cruiserweights or light heavyweights they've fought over the years.

Next.

But all of those guys did so well!! Well, at least better than Frazier would have fared against Lennox.

Next

[Elroy1]

Holyfield fought Lewis, Tyson & Bowe yet still says Foreman hit the hardest.

I'll take that over your pathetic, agenda pro klitschko driven bs.

Holyfield's opinion I respect very often because he has kept it real very often.

Foremen indeed was a hard puncher, I am not arguing that. "Hardest hitter" is romantic hogwash though.

Old man Foreman lacked the snap of his younger self, but that foreman was also much heftier (260lbs!) And STRENGTH trained through weights, pulling cars etc! Unlike younger Foreman who is NOT a big HW as we would describe them today!

Foreman was also an arm puncher and a push puncher as evidenced by film. His shots were strong at knocking fighters off balance, which is WHY he failed to canvas KO guys like Frazier, even after 6 KD's and many other fighters too!

He did not have the snap of Lewis or Bowe, despite being much heavier than them.

So what Evander describes is quite possibly true in a sense, just a different type of power.

But remember, Evander SURVIVED Foreman, he was knocked OUT by other fighters! The hardest shots scramble your brain so they are not felt, part of your bodies pain protective mechanism which is proven science (see fight science).

But the biggest problem I have with your post here is that you are willing to take someone elses WORD for something at all.

What you should be doing is investigating what is real from not real, regardless of what anybody says!

[Humean]

Observational evidence is the KEY reason WHY he is not very good.

He came forward bobbing and threw the left hook, that's it!

He could not handle the punch of a hard hitter like Foreman who'se power is typical of any HW today!

And in 15 rounds, he could not even knock out Ali who was completely reactionless the whole fight!

The only other time he faced what today we would regard as a decent opponent, he got viciously schooled!

Well if you want to make everything simplistic then I suppose that was all he could do . . . all Muhammad Ali did was throw the one two, all Monzon did was throw the jab and follow it with straight right hands after a while, Henry Armstrong just threw a lot of punches, Julio Cesar Chavez's left hook to the body was his only great punch and all Mayweather does is defend well and pot shot. Useless the lot of them.

If you think being unable to knock Muhammad Ali out is a major discredit for Frazier, or anyone else, then you really need new arguments. Not to mention that you want to overlook one of the greatest wins and performances in heavyweighs history as if it was insignificant. It is Monty Python-esque, 'what have the Romans ever done for us . . .', 'Besides producing perhaps the greatest win in heavyweight history what did Joe Frazier ever do? First man to defeat Muhammad Ali? Apart from that too. One of the greatest left hooks in history? Apart from that ' It is comical. I could go on but it is late.

[Elroy1]

But all of those guys did so well!! Well, at least better than Frazier would have fared against Lennox.

Next

And more specifically,

Frazier was a face first mauler at this size which is unacceptable today.

The smaller guys who were competitive outlined were either defensive masters who "stole rounds" or slick counterpunchers etc.

They had all around boxing skills too from their time at lower weight divisions too.

Never can a guy there size fight like Frazier anymore!

[Elroy1]

Well if you want to make everything simplistic then I suppose that was all he could do . . . all Muhammad Ali did was throw the one two, all Monzon did was throw the jab and follow it with straight right hands after a while, Henry Armstrong just threw a lot of punches, Julio Cesar Chavez's left hook to the body was his only great punch and all Mayweather does is defend well and pot shot. Useless the lot of them.

If you think being unable to knock Muhammad Ali out is a major discredit for Frazier, or anyone else, then you really need new arguments. Not to mention that you want to overlook one of the greatest wins and performances in heavyweighs history as if it was insignificant. It is Monty Python-esque, 'what have the Romans ever done for us . . .', 'Besides producing perhaps the greatest win in heavyweight history what did Joe Frazier ever do? First man to defeat Muhammad Ali? Apart from that too. One of the greatest left hooks in history? Apart from that ' It is comical. I could go on but it is late.

Your post contained 3 points of rubbish:

- Muhammad Ali is the greatest, couldn't be KO'ed by Frazier but that's nothing to be ashamed of.

Muhammad Ali was knocked down multiple times in his career, in the 60's he was knocked down several times by what we would today consider light HW's and against real HW's, EXTREME featherfists. 60's Clay was very chinny!

Granted, in the 70's his chin was stronger as he put on weight. But he never once had it tested against what we would today consider a hard puncher. If ANY modern HW considered to have even a REMOTELY hard punch was put in Frazier's place that night, like, say LAMON BREWSTER! Ali would have been crumpled in the 1st round. Frazier is punch weak, Ali is atleast somewhat chinny compared with a modern HW! It's clear!

- Producing the greatest win in HW history

Why is it the greatest win? A bummy boxer, beating another bummy boxer in a very scrappy, weak contest where one can't properly defend himself and spent the fight hugging his opponent and the other was too weak to finish his man off. It was a CRAP fight and thoroughly unimpressive!

- Greatest left hook in history

Based on what? Where is your evidence? Guys like Tommy Morrison and Mike Tyson and David Tua for example "KNOCK REAL HW'S BLOCKS OFF" with their left hooks, yet you think this OOmpa Lumpa has the best left hook of all time?

Geriatric American moron! You don't REALLY believe whaat you are saying, you can't, nobody could! Your pride is simply getting the better of you!

[Humean]

And more specifically,

Frazier was a face first mauler at this size which is unacceptable today.

The smaller guys who were competitive outlined were either defensive masters who "stole rounds" or slick counterpunchers etc.

They had all around boxing skills too from their time at lower weight divisions too.

Never can a guy there size fight like Frazier anymore!

Even if it was true that a 205-215 Frazier wouldn't be able to handle at least the better 240-250 heavyweights (Bowe, Lewis, Vitali, Wlad) of more recent times, why is that significant? He fought in an era when heavyweights were on average smaller and lighter than today. Surely the comparisons are largely unfair?

Frazier stayed low and bobbed and weaved. If you want to watch a face forward heavyweight then watch the more aggressive of today's heavyweights, there you will truly see a face first approach.

[Humean]

Your post contained 3 points of rubbish:

- Muhammad Ali is the greatest, couldn't be KO'ed by Frazier but that's nothing to be ashamed of.

Muhammad Ali was knocked down multiple times in his career, in the 60's he was knocked down several times by what we would today consider light HW's and against real HW's, EXTREME featherfists. 60's Clay was very chinny!

Granted, in the 70's his chin was stronger as he put on weight. But he never once had it tested against what we would today consider a hard puncher. If ANY modern HW considered to have even a REMOTELY hard punch was put in Frazier's place that night, like, say LAMON BREWSTER! Ali would have been crumpled in the 1st round. Frazier is punch weak, Ali is atleast somewhat chinny compared with a modern HW! It's clear!

- Producing the greatest win in HW history

Why is it the greatest win? A bummy boxer, beating another bummy boxer in a very scrappy, weak contest where one can't properly defend himself and spent the fight hugging his opponent and the other was too weak to finish his man off. It was a CRAP fight and thoroughly unimpressive!

- Greatest left hook in history

Based on what? Where is your evidence? Guys like Tommy Morrison and Mike Tyson and David Tua for example "KNOCK REAL HW'S BLOCKS OFF" with their left hooks, yet you think this OOmpa Lumpa has the best left hook of all time?

Geriatric American moron! You don't REALLY believe whaat you are saying, you can't, nobody could! Your pride is simply getting the better of you!

Either you are an extraordinarily committed troll or you're insane, it is very funny either way.

I'm Scottish and in my 20s.

[Elroy1]

Even if it was true that a 205-215 Frazier wouldn't be able to handle at least the better 240-250 heavyweights (Bowe, Lewis, Vitali, Wlad) of more recent times, why is that significant? He fought in an era when heavyweights were on average smaller and lighter than today. Surely the comparisons are largely unfair?

Frazier stayed low and bobbed and weaved. If you want to watch a face forward heavyweight then watch the more aggressive of today's heavyweights, there you will truly see a face first approach.

He had a bob and weave, many HW's employ that tactic still, Samuel Peter employed it in his 2nd fight with Samuel Peter and got viciously KO'ed. Same with Frazier who was also hit at will in the 70's and dropped several times.

Do not kid yourself that modern HW's don't move. They are more defensive overall because they have to be. If they aren't moving they are watching, ready to move.

Frazier's bob and weave also did not help him to survive against Foreman or to escape being knocked down by a cruiserish bum like Bonavena!

And you know what I think about little Frazier fighting the giant HW's of the modern era?

OF COURSE it wouldn't be fair! That was never asked of Frazier back in the 70's and nor SHOULD it be asked of him today.

And that is exactly my point!

You cannot judge a fighter against a criteria that didn't apply when he was around UNTIL you THEN try to favourably compare that fighter against the NEW criteria, then you must use the standards of today instead!

Now what your really asking is "Did Frazier do enough in his era to be considered an ATG?"

You will claim the question is ******, because he beat Ali, THE Ali.

I would seriously doubt Frazier even still! Since he was spanked regularly by Norton in sparring who in reality spanked Ali in 3 fights and had his own problems too. Since he wad annihilated by Foreman 2ce and since Muhammad Ali was gifted etc or otherwise fortunate in nearly 15 or so of his win fights and moreover the most overrated boxer of all time, this win is not really that special on it's own!

Aside from Muhammad Ali, Frazier never beat another really good opponent!

I think Frazier should be HOF but not necessarily ATG!

[Elroy1]

Either you are an extraordinarily committed troll or you're insane, it is very funny either way.

I'm Scottish and in my 20s.

So what's your story then?

How did it come about that you would have decided to watch Ali vs Frazier 1?

Your father? Your coach or something told you once that it was "FOTC"?

Tell me when you sit down with your mates to watch a boxing match, do you put on a high octane, exciting fighter like Lewis, Tyson, Bowe/Holyfield trilogy or something?

Or do you put on ridiculously boring, grainy filmed Frazier Ali 1 featuring those 2 jokes?

If it's the latter, remind me NEVER to drink at your place!