Ward in beating E-Rod as a LHW has now twice beaten the lineal LHW champ.

[Russian Crushin]

Those are just words, what matters is what happens and the results in the ring, for example Floyd beat Ortiz for the WBC title at 147 then didn't defend his title against Guerrero for about the same amount of time Zsolt took a break but wasn't stripped and he didn't even have any lineage to my knowledge.

Regardless of whether he fought Cotto at 154 or if he decided to be a tennis player he had a title at a specific weight class and didn't defend it for a some time but is still the recognized champion of that organization which means even less than the inarguable claim Zsolt could make at 175.

They're not just words, they're actions. Floyd relinquished his WW title and then the lineage was re-established at year later with Marg-cotto I think. Then Shane won it from marg and then Floyd won it from Shane and his it now

[No.]

For example Muhammad Ali retired his lineal title for refusing being drafted and that made the Frazier-Ellis fight for the real HW championship.

False.

Ali was still regarded as the lineal/legit Heavyweight champ at the time of Frazier I. Despite the 3 year hiatus.

[Spray_resistant]

They're not just words, they're actions. Floyd relinquished his WW title and then the lineage was re-established at year later with Marg-cotto I think. Then Shane won it from marg and then Floyd won it from Shane and his it now

So then it makes it ok for Floyd not to defend his WBC title and remain champion for the same amount of time Zsolt didn't defend his legitimately won lineal championship because all because he didn't utter a few special words?

If that is what you are saying than can anyone else pre Grachev/Zsolt or even now make a stronger lineal claim? If so how without unifying with other belt holder and just passing around the WBC and IBO titles which at times during the last couple years no one held and were just vacant/up for grabs trinkets?

[No.]

you can not leave a division for a year and a half and still be the lineal champion

When you retire, you give up the lineal title.

What the hell source, link, handbook etc. are guys getting this from?

Michael Spinks was the universally recognized lineal Heavyweight champ at the time of the Tyson fight, even though he was OFFICIALLY retired for 1 & a half years.

Joe Louis was still the universally recognized undisputed champ during his 3 year hiatus from the division.

I believe Ali was still recognized as the lineal champ at the time of the Holmes fight.

[Russian Crushin]

So then it makes it ok for Floyd not to defend his WBC title and remain champion for the same amount of time Zsolt didn't defend his legitimately won lineal championship because all because he didn't utter a few special words?

If that is what you are saying than can anyone else pre Grachev/Zsolt or even now make a stronger lineal claim? If so how without unifying with other belt holder and just passing around the WBC and IBO titles which at times during the last couple years no one held and were just vacant/up for grabs trinkets?

Time doesnt matter at all. When you "retire", you vacate your title and there's no turning back. Just because Zolt decided to return 10 months later, doesnt mean he gets his "title" back after all that time. In fact by the time Zolt "decided" to un-retire, a new lineage had already been established between #1 and #2 at 175. How did people know that he would unretire in 11 months?

[Sugar Adam Ali]

Ward last year beat up, out boxed, and made Dawson quit who was the Ring and recognized LHW champion until Stevenson iced him.

Sure it wasn't at LHW but still impressive and by way of actual victories in the ring not paper vacant titles handed out for fun.

Ward just beat E-rod, (who fought as a LHW Saturday) who beat Grachev, who beat Zsolt, who beat Gonzales, who beat Darusiz, who beat Virgil Hill to unify 3 belts while Roy Jones was dicking around beating old Mike McCullum at a weight he didn't belong at for a vacant interim title.

I know people maybe don't know or like to pretend that Roy was the LHW champion because of his awesome physical talents but he really wasn't, his belts were mostly interim or vacant titles won and he had no lineage at all.

I like to pretend too but don't be mad at me for telling the truth be mad at Roy for not going to the champ's home and taking his belts from him and as a result now Ward is the real LHW champion in my eyes in addition to being the real SMW champion.

Damn you nailed it about roy jones,,, but didnt he beat gonzlaez after gonzales beat daruisiz

[Spray_resistant]

Time doesnt matter at all. When you "retire", you vacate your title and there's no turning back. Just because Zolt decided to return 10 months later, doesnt mean he gets his "title" back after all that time. In fact by the time Zolt "decided" to un-retire, a new lineage had already been established between #1 and #2 at 175. How did people know that he would unretire in 11 months?

The one thing you are correct about is time not mattering, but what title did Zsolt vacate other than possibly the worthless WBO title as in this scenario all of the ABC belts became meaningless once a lineage is established as it was after the Hill/Dariusz fight which is why RJJ was never really LHW champ?

How exactly after Zsolt supposedly vacated his indelible lineage does anyone determine who are the best top two fighters in a division if there is already a clearly defined championship lineage not bound by sanctioning bodies? Opinions I suppose which we have to agree is no more concrete than a P4P list.
Is that stronger than the recorded lineage from actual fight results in the ring? I think not, so when we get right down to it when a lineal champion is absent for an undetermined amount of time and returns that fighter has a concrete case for the number 1 spot as all other fighters cases are debatable and subject to scrutiny.

[Spray_resistant]

Damn you nailed it about roy jones,,, but didnt he beat gonzlaez after gonzales beat daruisiz

Yes he did but unfortunately not when it meant winning would have made him lineal champion which is the only thing I am talking about in this thread.

[Russian Crushin]

What the hell source, link, handbook etc. are guys getting this from?

Michael Spinks was the universally recognized lineal Heavyweight champ at the time of the Tyson fight, even though he was OFFICIALLY retired for 1 & a half years.

Since when?

Joe Louis was still the universally recognized undisputed champ during his 3 year hiatus from the division.

He wasnt retired tho. Several divisions during WW2 were basically "frozen". It was a weird time

I believe Ali was still recognized as the lineal champ at the time of the Holmes fight.

No, he wasnt, he retired, vacating the title right before the fight. But when he came back, they started a new lineage (for holmes) since they were clear #1 and #2 at HW

[Russian Crushin]

The one thing you are correct about is time not mattering, but what title did Zsolt vacate other than possibly the worthless WBO title as in this scenario all of the ABC belts became meaningless once a lineage is established as it was after the Hill/Dariusz fight which is why RJJ was never really LHW champ?

He vacated the claim to the lineage. But you're right, RJJ was never technically the lineal champ. But the lineal champ is not always the best fighter in the division. Sometimes it's as worthless as a belt honestly.

How exactly after Zsolt supposedly vacated his indelible lineage does anyone determine who are the best top two fighters in a division if there is already a clearly defined championship lineage not bound by sanctioning bodies? Opinions I suppose which we have to agree is no more concrete than a P4P list.

He retired the lineage, ending it and the next "lineal" champ is determined by the clear #1 and #2 contenders fighting in the division.

Is that stronger than the recorded lineage from actual fight results in the ring? I think not, so when we get right down to it when a lineal champion is absent for an undetermined amount of time and returns that fighter has a concrete case for the number 1 spot as all other fighters cases are debatable and subject to scrutiny.

Zolt retired and was no longer a fighter when a new lineage was established. Like i said it was the same with Floyd retiring his WW lineage when he retired and there was a new lineal champ (Mosley) when he came back 1.5 years later