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Vitaly Klitschko IS an exciting fighter who gave a lot to the sport. Does that mean we should just bump other fighters who were also exciting, did a lot for the sport, accomplished more and had better resumes just So Klitschko fans can call Vits an ATG? Come on, you really don't see the ridiculousness of that?
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Don't forget man : facts are just interpretations, the truth comes from a judgement. You can't base your whole conviction on judgements made out of interpretations ( facts).
I really don't see where we can find a common field of understanding. That is why I have to conclude is an ATG for some and an "ordinary" champion for others. You know my belief about it, I know yours.Comment
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TKO 6
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Completely forgot about this thread. 12 pages worth of ATG fail material.Comment
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If you're the same Jab I debated on another forum, then I know you're more intelligent than most VK haters. You clearly don't like something about VK (Byrd fight?), and there are logical debates to be had about where to put fighters historically, but looking at the facts and stats I had above, even his most ardent hater has got to admit he belongs in the top 15 all time if they are being rational, which I think you are. There are 10 other HW's who have been dominant HW champ like VK, i.e. being champ over three or more years, having more than 3 or 4 defenses, and either avenging losses or not losing until clearly declined (Sullivan, Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Louis, Marciano, Ali, Holmes Lewis, WK), and maybe five others who you can make an argument were dominant champs or otherwise had a really great impact and could be considered the best or second best of their era (Tunney, Schmeling, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson). While the most fact driven, rational arguments would have Vitali in the upper half of that pantheon, I could see a basically rational person who absolutely hates Vitali putting all of them above him. But after those, you get to HW's who were definitively proven the 3rd or 4th best of their era or 2nd best with virtually no successful title defenses. There's really no rational argument to put such people over someone who, along with his brother, has dominated the division for the better part of a decade. Personally, I defined ATG as around a top 40 HW all time, I guess it depends on how you define ATG. Regardless, top 15 or 20 should have you as an ATG, and there's no rational argument that VK is not a top 20 HW all time. Personally, I can't stand Holyfield for various reasons, and he was the 3rd or 4th best fighter of his era, he's absurdly overrated, basically a top contender that got very lucky. But I still can't deny that based on accomplishments he's an ATG and top 20 all time HW. So, Jab, however much you dislike VK, can you honestly say you think people like Max Baer(one successful title defense, 13 overall losses) or Sonny Liston(one successful title defense, 4 overall losses) or Floyd Patterson (6 total successful title defenses over 2 reigns, failed to fight most of the era's top fighters while he was champ, except for those he lost to, defended instead against the worst level of competition any champ with so many defense has ever fought, lost to many of the top fighters of his era, 8 losses total) should be ranked higher than VK? If so, you're not as rational as I think.
As far as this post goes, I understand its debatable, but I still have never seen how people don't accept that LL was closer to peak than Vitali. Prime, especially among very large, tall HW's, is much later now than it used to be. Looking at fight discipline and overall performance, VK's peak was around Chris Arreola, when he was 38. That was older than LL was when they fought. Lewis's general output in that fight was in line with Lewis's best performances, and he'd been performing at his highest level in his most recent fights. VK fought more recklessly and less disciplined against LL than he did later, probably a confidence thing and a lack of championship experience, after all, he was going against an ATG (and after all, throughout history there are almost no examples of one dominant champ being dethroned by another dominant champ) Vitali without doubt did better against LL than Joe Louis did against older "past his prime" Max Schmeling, or Ali did against past his prime Frazier (past his prime because he was already blind in one eye in their first fight), but they got to rematch and show they were the better fighters. Lewis wisely declined to give VK that opportunity.Comment
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