Is Andre Ward comparible to Pre-Pacquiao Tim Bradley?

[dibzvincent143]

funny as it is, but yeah, kind of.

[The Evil 1-2]

Bradley has never been highly touted as anything bro..Yet the dude is one of the most accomplished young fighters in the sport...Bradley was not known as a fighter with power,yet has made plenty of opponents hit the canvas...Bradley is not known for being a defensive fighter,yet made Pac Peterson Alexander etc etc miss a ton...Bradley was not a highly thought of prospect(you had guys like Khan Ortiz etc etc)but yet here he stands one of the top p4p fighters in the game..I really don't care what Bradley is known for from people who don't believe he is that good anyway(people like ya self)..Yet look at all he's accomplished and done in his career...

I don't believe I'm delusional for believing Bradley beat Pac..I believe your delusional for thinking that 3 respected (respected is the keyword,these were not flash in the pan judges)judges who all thought the fight was close were wrong...Anyway I don't want to get into that whole thing,that's not what this thread is about...

To say Bradley is just a pressure fighter is ridiculous...I think Bradley will do what's called for in a fight to win it...Nothing more nothing less,and yes I do believe he is multifaceted,just look at his style in the Witter Holt and Alexander fights,completely different then the style in the Peterson Cherry and Pac fights...He took more of a counter punchers approach in those respected fights,whereas in the other fights he used a more aggressive pressure style..To say Bradley is just a pressure fighter is like me saying Mayweather is just a Pressure fighter now...Mayweather is a pressure fighter right now,but I believe we all know it's not that cut and dry...Oh and if he had to Mayweather will adapt and change his style to fit his situation...Not saying Bradley is a Mayweather,but I think you get the overall point I'm trying to make...

You imply Bradley HAS POWER because he has made plenty of fighters hit the canvas. This is problematic. First, a KD doesn't necessarily mean the fighter has genuine power. The KD could have resulted from a well-placed punch in an exchange or due to poor defense by the fighter that got knocked down.

You imply that Bradley has GREAT DEFENSE because he has made fighters MISS A TON. What am I reading here? Let's look at his most recent performance against Pacquiao considering that a fighter's last fight is presumably the best way to gauge the development of his current skills. Simply put, he got hit PLENTY of times in that fight, which is why many in the Boxing world called the decision in Bradley's favor a robbery. But this doesn't matter to you because you think Bradley won based on "competent" judging, LOL.

My assessment of Bradley's style has no negative effect on his ranking. With the exception of the gift decision against Pac, he has earned his spot. You're committing a Strawman fallacy by insinuating that I don't think Bradley is deserving of his high-ranking status. Far from it; I'm simply saying that he has gotten to this point PRIMARILY ON A PRESSURE STYLE.

Bradley isn't the type of fighter to make great in-fight adjustments like Mayweather. If that were the case, he would have shown such an ability in the Pac fight. The Witter bout was a good example of his forward-pressure. The Alexander fight was a good example of his pressure coupled with the fact that Alexander's offensive attack in that fight was WAY TOO PREDICTABLE. Sure, he tried to implement a counter-punching style against Pac, but as I stated to the another poster, THIS WAS A FAILURE AND HE SHOULD HAVE GOTTEN AN OFFICIAL LOSS BECAUSE OF IT. He doesn't have the necessary skills/tools to effectively implement such a style against the elite of the elite.

[The Evil 1-2]

Alright, I think we're arguing over different things. The only two statements I am arguing is that Ward and Bradley have obvious similarities in the way they fight, and that Bradley is not a one dimensional pressure fighter. I'm going to argue one point at a time here.




Well I guess you didn't specifically use the word "solely", but that first (oversimplified) statement clearly implies that


Then there's this..

No, I'm suggesting that Bradley (should have) lost because he attempted the impossible. The odds were stacked against him. Bradley was fighting an ATG who everyone picked to win by KO. Add the fact that he was moving up to do it in a division where Pacquiao had already established himself as a dominant force. The odds were not in his favor. And by the way, no one has trouble making weight when they're moving up. Rosada didn't exactly struggle to make 160, but he should probably go back down to 154 anyway. Through proper resistance training, and enough time at that weight, Bradley can be a legit 147lber, but his last two fights at that weight both looked bad, so I don't really see why you're so sure the weight is right for him.



Well if you like quoting the commentators, you'll love this. Skip to about the 55 second mark. "Andre Ward came in like a billy goat on that one!"
Mind you this is a crap video put together by an angry Kessler fan, and I don't attribute his dominate win over Kessler strictly to "fighting dirty", but I do know an intentional headbutt when I see one. Saying Ward doesn't headbutt is admitting you have not been watching his rise to the top, at least not closely. I also strongly disagree with your definition of a headbutt. If your head hits his head, it's a headbutt. If your eye is swelling shut, and your opponent keeps getting inside and digging the top of his head into your orbital bone during the clinch, that is also a headbutt. Crafty vets like Bernard and Ward are physical fighters that are better at this than most.



I didn't attribute that to just Bradley. I clearly said both fighters do this, while comparing their similarities (to which there are many).



Well typically the key to being a good pressure fighter is to AVOID being smothered. You want to stay in range and not let your opponent get away, while also not allowing them to smother you and take away your leverage. Bradley's ability to smother an opponent at will is part of his defense and good inside game.



Well re-watch it again. First off, Bradley didn't win. That fight was a NC. In the second round Bradley continues dancing away, so that he can catch Nate with big punches coming in. Only time he isn't moving back is when Nate catches up and they start the in-fighting until it's broken up.



I thought I had already made this clear, but I'll just say it one more time. Yes, I agree with you that in no way is Tim Bradley as skilled as Ward. If I had a p4p list, Ward would be at #1. And I suppose that I also agree with the statement that they don't have the same exact style.. Of course I never said that they did. I simply said that he is underrated, and has similarities in his style to a far superior Andre Ward.

Well, it seems like you've again deviated from an initial stance. It seemed as though that you were in full agreement with the premise of the thread. I rebutted this premise by mentioning certain skills that Bradley lacks such as counter-punching acumen and superb defense that Ward DEFINITELY possesses and you failed to address these observations.

Now, you OVERLY hype his act of going up to 147 as some sort of miraculous feat that deserves plenty of praise. The fact of the matter is that he has been capable of hitting the 147 lb mark pretty easily SINCE 2010. If I'm not mistaken, he weighed in at 147 for the Abregu fight. He hit 146 lbs for the Pacquiao fight in 2012. This notion of yours that he has trouble making 147 is unsubstantiated by the numbers. To add, Bradley and his camp have never complained about welterweight being too hard for them to make. Even reporters for the sport such as Dan Ambrose commented on the "superb shape" that Bradley was in for the Pacquiao fight. EVEN WITH ALL THIS SAID, this is again a far cry from one of your initial statements. When I first responded to you on this topic, you agreed that he had the frame for 147, but your only personal issue with it was his lower body. I hate to break it to you, but most Boxers tend to look very top heavy. As I stated before, this is funny considering that proper punching power comes from the bottom up.

An intentional headbutt still fits into my previous definition of a headbutt. Yes, Ward uses his head, but not in an intentional headbutting manner. As I said, he puts his head on his opponents chest and swims with underhooks and overhooks to punish his opponent on the inside. Any INCIDENTAL contact with his head on the opponent's chest such as digging into cuts is just part of the game. I really don't think he's maliciously trying to be dirty with that. Hell, it's even questionable if it's dirty or not since it is incidental.

Bradley's ability to smother his opponents his well is indicative of his pressure style. It has nothing to do with maintaining distance since the goal of smothering is to CLOSE DISTANCE. This is due to pressure not to some outstanding defensive skill that you attribute to Bradley. As for the inside game, pressuring to close distance allows for Bradley to be effective with it.

I made an honest mistake with the Bradley-Campbell outcome. I apologize. However, the outcome still doesn't invalidate what I said about how Bradley found most of his success in that bout. He found most of his success while being on the inside with Campbell, which came from constant pursuit. I'll admit that he tried to box on the outside in the first, but later abandoned it in the second and in the third because he was having MOST OF HIS SUCCESS FROM HIS EXPECTED PRESSURE STYLE.

You try to save face by FINALLY ADMITTING OR, AT LEAST, MAKING IT CLEAR that they don't have the same exact style. But this is totally contrary to the premise of the threadstarter. He basically implied Ward is another Bradley. This is an embarrassment. If he's superior as you SO APTLY POINT OUT, then why bother making comparisons? It should end right there. Ward is not another Bradley. He's far more skilled than Bradley as YOU EVEN ADMIT.

[bojangles1987]

Well, by saying that Ward is another Bradley, implies that Bradley is as good, if not better, than Ward. You clearly agree with me that he's not.

As for this well-rounded skill-set that Bradley has, I have yet to see it in most of his fights. He wins PRIMARILY based on pressure, which wilts his opponents. If he slips punches so well, then why has he never been noted for his defense among boxing experts? Sure, he fights on the inside quite alright, but he gets there through FORWARD-PRESSURE. If he boxes on the outside so well, then why did he look so poor doing it against Pacquiao?

He didn't look poor doing it against Pacquiao, at least I don't think so. He was simply overmatched, because Pacquiao is one of the greatest fighters ever and the only people who have handled Pacquiao very well are other ATG fighters. He still managed to lift three or four rounds off Pacquiao, and close the fight better than Pacquiao did. Considering most expected him to get smashed, I'd say he performed better than expected.

[Spiegelo]

BLA BLA BLA whole bunch of crap I didn't read... You try to save face by FINALLY ADMITTING OR, AT LEAST, MAKING IT CLEAR that they don't have the same exact style BLA!!

"Obviously Ward is more well rounded, but style-wise there's plenty of similarities." - Me on page 1 of this thread

Didn't have to look hard to shut that one down

[thuggery]

Both dirty and boring fighters.

[The Evil 1-2]

He didn't look poor doing it against Pacquiao, at least I don't think so. He was simply overmatched, because Pacquiao is one of the greatest fighters ever and the only people who have handled Pacquiao very well are other ATG fighters. He still managed to lift three or four rounds off Pacquiao, and close the fight better than Pacquiao did. Considering most expected him to get smashed, I'd say he performed better than expected.

You're entitled to your opinion I guess. However, if he truly didn't look poor doing it, then why do so many say that the outcome was a robbery.

You're correct. He was overmatched. Pac has trouble against counter-punchers with movement that can box on the outside. Sadly, Bradley can't do any of these things REMARKABLY well.

[The Evil 1-2]

"Obviously Ward is more well rounded, but style-wise there's plenty of similarities." - Me on page 1 of this thread

Didn't have to look hard to shut that one down

Yes, I understood that point. Given this statement, why did you even partake in this debate? You didn't bring any objections when I said skill dictates style. If Ward has more skills, how can there be this plethora of similarities between him and Bradley? It doesn't logically follow.

[Spiegelo]

Yes, I understood that point. Given this statement, why did you even partake in this debate? You didn't bring any objections when I said skill dictates style. If Ward has more skills, how can there be this plethora of similarities between him and Bradley? It doesn't logically follow.

I was trying to educate you on boxing, something I've given up on. You can use that dictionary, but you just don't learn....

[bojangles1987]

You're entitled to your opinion I guess. However, if he truly didn't look poor doing it, then why do so many say that the outcome was a robbery.

You're correct. He was overmatched. Pac has trouble against counter-punchers with movement that can box on the outside. Sadly, Bradley can't do any of these things REMARKABLY well.

Because it was a robbery. But again, the only people who have handled Pacquiao since his losses earlier in his career are other ATG fighters. Its not as simple as "counter-punching with movement," or Pacquiao would have a few more losses. Bradley isn't that, but he still showed skill that most people still don't think he has, even though they picked Pacquiao to slaughter him early.

No, Bradley doesn't do those things remarkably, but he does them well. He does just about everything well, but nothing remarkably. That's the difference between him and Ward, who does a few things remarkably. But it doesn't mean a fighter isn't well rounded, just because they aren't as good as a better fighter that is well rounded. That's all I'm debating with you about, is that Bradley is a well rounded fighter, who does almost everything well. I'm not arguing that he beat Pacquiao or is as good as Ward, just that.