Sugar Ray Robinson #1 for eternity?

[kendom]

He is absolutely right. Lots of fans and boxing experts don't think he was the greatest of all time. He had flaws. He lost 19 fights. He had draws and split decisions even when he was young and in his prime.Some of those close fights the crowd thought he lost. The old timers kept saying he was the best so anyone who did not think he was the greatest just kept quiet. I have seen others I thought were better. I am not saying he was not great. I just don't think he was the greatest. Could he beat a prime Hagler or Monzon or Hopkins? I don't think so.Floyd Mayweather thinks he is better. Mayby he is.

Kendom, PFP is a matter of opinion not a matter of long lists. Your are welcome to your opinion of Robinson but you can't force your opinion on me. I know Robinson's record very well. I have it in front of me now and I have studied it many times. I know who he fought, what the age, record and weight of both Robinson and his opponent was, and how the fight was scored. I am a 53 year veteran of watching boxing so I make up my own mind on who I think is best. I don't give a damn what others think unless I have never seen the fighter in action. I have seen plenty of films of Robinson and even saw him fight live in an exibition fight. I have also seen plenty of the guys I rate over him. You left out the fact that Robinson lost to Basilio, a welterweight who he out weighed by 7 pounds. He lost to Turpin in his prime. He beat Fullmer once and lost to Fullmer twice. He lost to LaMotta and he lost to Ralgh Jones by a large margin when he was 33 years old and never gave Jones a tittle shot. He beat Armstrong when he was 23 and Armstrong was 33 and wased up after 160 pro fights. He also outweighed Armstrong by 6 pounds. So much for your list. As for Floyd not being better, Floyd said he was better than Robinson. I just said maybe he is. You can't say for sure he isn't better because they never fought and have no common opponents so it's just your opinion, not fact. I do know Floyd is 35 and has not lost yet and has had only two fights that were even close. By the time Robinson was 35 he had lost lots of fights The draws and split decisions he had in his prime were not a result of him fighting several times in one month but nice try with your excuses. If he was so superior why would the crowd think he lost? Some of the experts agreed with the crowd. So you keep Robinson as your pfp greatest of all time and I will keep my picks.

1) I'm not trying to "enforce" any opinion on you. You typed your post and so left yourself open to criticism. Fighters are usually ranked by resume, accomplishments, longevity and to a lesser extent ability. Ray Robinson has all in abundance. Its not just from word of mouth as you claimed in your earlier post.

2) Robinson lost to Basilio when he was 37 and had over 150 fights of mileage on him, people had been telling him to retire years earlier, he was way past his best, it was still a close decision and he beat him in the rematch. Fullmer also got Robinson past his prime and Robinson knocked him out the second time, he was robbed the third time when he was 39 and was beaten the 4th time when he was 40.

3) Armstrong wasnt "washed up" he was undoubtedly past his best but he had beaten Fritzie Zivic a year before and was one of the top ranked fighters in the welterweight division at the time, and Robinson had to fight him to get a title shot

4) LOL at "excuses" the guy was fighting multiple times every month, Floyd doesnt have anywhere near the resume Robinson has, you're telling me that if Floyd was fighting multiple times a month against ranked contenders that he wouldn't have hang ups on his record? unless you can provide newspaper reports showing experts of the time agreeing that the controversial opinions should have gone against Robinson you don't really have much of an argument.

[hugh grant]

or the other way around for Floyd.....

A win over Floyd for Manny would be an upset to most besides Manny's fans, most people pick Mayweather to win....but a win over Martinez would be some outrageous **** for Manny, if he did that no one dispute he is at least a top 5 p4p fighter same goes for Mayweather

See, this is the kind of unreasonable expectations on Pac that make me think these kind of comments are from haters trying to withhold praise.

Some people already think Pac is top 5 p4p. Paul Mallignagi said if Pac beat Cotto, Pac would be GOAT in his opinion, yet when Pac achieved it, Paul seemed to if not backtracked kept quiet about it.

Pac is 5ft6 came from 106. Sergio is top 3 p4p, big guys cant beat him, yet a little guy can and Pac isnt goat? So no one can pinpoint exactly what is is Pac has to do, maybe cos of fear he will do it, and then they will have to reluctantly swallow humble pie.
SRR couldnt ever give up those kind of advantages and win, and he never did do what people expect of Pac.

[waxfondler]

i dont see anyone touching SRR... the skillset, athleticism, heart, record, etc... trust me, if there was a fighter that came along that compares, we would KNOW it... leonard, hagler, ali, etc couldnt surpass him... so i HIGHLY doubt today's generation of overpaid divas & hypejob prospects coud even get close.

[waxfondler]

1) I'm not trying to "enforce" any opinion on you. You typed your post and so left yourself open to criticism. Fighters are usually ranked by resume, accomplishments, longevity and to a lesser extent ability. Ray Robinson has all in abundance. Its not just from word of mouth as you claimed in your earlier post.

2) Robinson lost to Basilio when he was 37 and had over 150 fights of mileage on him, people had been telling him to retire years earlier, he was way past his best, it was still a close decision and he beat him in the rematch. Fullmer also got Robinson past his prime and Robinson knocked him out the second time, he was robbed the third time when he was 39 and was beaten the 4th time when he was 40.

3) Armstrong wasnt "washed up" he was undoubtedly past his best but he had beaten Fritzie Zivic a year before and was one of the top ranked fighters in the welterweight division at the time, and Robinson had to fight him to get a title shot

4) LOL at "excuses" the guy was fighting multiple times every month, Floyd doesnt have anywhere near the resume Robinson has, you're telling me that if Floyd was fighting multiple times a month against ranked contenders that he wouldn't have hang ups on his record? unless you can provide newspaper reports showing experts of the time agreeing that the controversial opinions should have gone against Robinson you don't really have much of an argument.

GREAT post. people get hung up on his losses, etc.... but the man was a beast and fought like a warrior with technique that was untouchable at the time. if our current crop of p4p fighters fought the same frequency as SRR, NOBODY would be undefeated.

[therealpugilist]

See, this is the kind of unreasonable expectations on Pac that make me think these kind of comments are from haters trying to withhold praise.

Some people already think Pac is top 5 p4p. Paul Mallignagi said if Pac beat Cotto, Pac would be GOAT in his opinion, yet when Pac achieved it, Paul seemed to if not backtracked kept quiet about it.

Pac is 5ft6 came from 106. Sergio is top 3 p4p, big guys cant beat him, yet a little guy can and Pac isnt goat? So no one can pinpoint exactly what is is Pac has to do, maybe cos of fear he will do it, and then they will have to reluctantly swallow humble pie.
SRR couldnt ever give up those kind of advantages and win, and he never did do what people expect of Pac.

dude....Manny hasnt done enough to be in the top 5 p4p im talking about all time.....

Georges Carpentier started and flyweight and became lightheavyweight champion and Joe walcott was a welterweight champion knocking out lightheavyweights and these guys arent even top ten so Manny has a way to go to be in the top ten p4p.

know your history....Jimmy McClarnin beat better competition than Manny beat more hall of famers and contenders started as a flyweight and won the REAL weltweight title


its funny how you always try to make it seem like Pacquaio has done something unprecedented lol

[Merciless1]

I highly , highly doubt it.

[therealpugilist]

See, this is the kind of unreasonable expectations on Pac that make me think these kind of comments are from haters trying to withhold praise.

Some people already think Pac is top 5 p4p. Paul Mallignagi said if Pac beat Cotto, Pac would be GOAT in his opinion, yet when Pac achieved it, Paul seemed to if not backtracked kept quiet about it.

Pac is 5ft6 came from 106. Sergio is top 3 p4p, big guys cant beat him, yet a little guy can and Pac isnt goat? So no one can pinpoint exactly what is is Pac has to do, maybe cos of fear he will do it, and then they will have to reluctantly swallow humble pie.
SRR couldnt ever give up those kind of advantages and win, and he never did do what people expect of Pac.

If you dont think he can do it thats cool, but its not impossible

The people that put Manny in the top 5 all-time have not watched boxing very long and probably dont know of anyone before 1990 not named Tyson or Ali.....Hell I can reel off 10 guys that were greater had better resumes and more skills Manny isnt even top 20 yet, there has been too many great fighters

Joe Walcott and Sam Langforde started below the welterweight limit and were knocking out lightheavyweights and heavyweights. Hearns started at 147 and was knocking out cruiserweights, Roy Jones started at 156 and beat a 225 pound Ruiz

[hugh grant]

Dear dear..im not sure i should reply........John Ruiz?
Sergio is a top p4p fighter, guys who are 6ft and have got very good records going into a fight with Sergio although have tested Sergio havent beat him!

Sergio is alongside Pac in the rankings but is 5ft10ish and outweighs Pac by a stone at Pacs heighisst weight. Fight night could outweigh him by 20lbs.

Pac might beat him, but it is possibly more dangerous than Pac needs, and if you are saying that dont make him the goat, im not sure Pac should bother. Maybe he should leave Sergio and go for Ward. Would beating Ward make Pac no3 of all time or maybe Pac would settle for being above SRL. If Pac beat Dawson, if Pac asks nicely he may even end up being above Duran.

It seems Pac has to do more than others to get the credit it is called .....discrimination

[therealpugilist]

Dear dear..im not sure i should reply........John Ruiz?
Sergio is a top p4p fighter, guys who are 6ft and have got very good records going into a fight with Sergio although have tested Sergio havent beat him!

Sergio is alongside Pac in the rankings but is 5ft10ish and outweighs Pac by a stone at Pacs heighisst weight. Fight night could outweigh him by 20lbs.

Pac might beat him, but it is possibly more dangerous than Pac needs, and if you are saying that dont make him the goat, im not sure Pac should bother. Maybe he should leave Sergio and go for Ward. Would beating Ward make Pac no3 of all time or maybe Pac would settle for being above SRL. If Pac beat Dawson, if Pac asks nicely he may even end up being above Duran.

It seems Pac has to do more than others to get the credit it is called .....discrimination

so beating Sergio Martinez makes Pacqiao the GOAT.....LOL, would beating Sergio Martinez make Mayweather the GOAT in your eyes? I doubt it

Its dudes that beat fighters with bigger size advantages than that thoughout the history of boxing, and competed in more weight classes so If you gonna be the GOAT you have to have done amazing things or things others cant do

Sam Langforde beat beat great fighters from lightweight and heavyweight and most people rank Henry Armstrong and Robinson over him so a win over Martinez is not gonna trump what these guys have accomplished....Sorry just the truth

[hugh grant]

so beating Sergio Martinez makes Pacqiao the GOAT.....LOL, would beating Sergio Martinez make Mayweather the GOAT in your eyes? I doubt it

Its dudes that beat fighters with bigger size advantages than that thoughout the history of boxing, and competed in more weight classes so If you gonna be the GOAT you have to have done amazing things or things others cant do

...Sorry just the truth

Floyd isnt on Pacs level achievementwise. You can think Floyd is very close to Pac as much as you want, but he aint level with Pac so no Floyd beating Sergio wont make Floyd the goat.
Pac has taken more risks than Floyd throughout his career, even with the requesting CWs.
Taking risks is similar to what SRR did, and what SRR did and is known for is about as far away from floyd as you can get, so dont be silly now.
Pac has did things no one has ever did before with an amazing long run of great wins back to back relatively easy (dont mention JMM, only one man afterall) , yet Pac has dominated with his performances at peak weight. Its supposed to be harder, but Pac has made it look easier.

If Pac beat Sergio, it would be something SRR didnt quite do, nor RJJ. SRR equited himself well when he fought the big boys but usually lost in a gallant effort. Ruiz was considered a bit of a joke before RJJ even got to him. Plus not so much difference in height and size, Ruiz was a small heavyweight who was light heavyweight before, not to mention he was ponderous and slow and even RJJ said Pac is no3 before he beat Cotto i beleive.

Sergio is a live wire, speed, power and similar qualities to Pac.