If Roach Isn't A Great Trainer, Then Who Is?

[Uns]

Trainers on the whole are overrated, IMHO. A fighter will live or die by his own smarts.

I've just finished reading SRL's book, and he tells how Dundee didn't even come to train him until the last couple of weeks of fights, by which time he had already prepared the game plan.

In Larry Holmes book, he minimises the role of all his trainers (even Eddie Futcher), and not even in an arrogant, deluded way.

In this sense, Freddie is overrated. But relative to other trainers, he is right up there. I mean, we've got people saying his greatness lies in his ability to match-up Pacquiao up well. Yep, that's why Toney, Tyson, Starling, Tapia, Hopkins, Vasquez etc chose Freddie as their trainer.

Nowadays, Garcia and Diaz are supposedly better than him. 5 years ago, it was probably Buddy McGirt and Ronnie Shields.

When it comes to trainers, people are very influenced by trends and momentum, because we don't really have true insight into know whether someone is a great trainer or not.

But what we do know about Freddie is this; a bunch of great fighters have chosen to work with him. And he's trained a modern great for a long time and through a lot of success.

What was telling was Hatton and Floyd Senior. I saw how Hatton was waiting on him and read that he kept being late a lot. Then I read Manny refusing to leave Kronk and fly out to train I think it is Cotto. Oh and recently Potvekin lost Teddy Atlas because of a TV deal that Atlas had or something?

Trainers should at least be 100% commited if they take the job.

I think this is why some family trainers like Enzo Calzaghe and Uncle Roger do so well, their is chemistry.

[Brother Jay]

Yet it didn't answer the Q.

IMO it did.

It took a question that called for subjective, opinion-based replies and put a distinction into place ... eliminating the "My Dad is tougher than your Dad" kind of nonsense that would have ensued.

The reply .. as brief and concise as it was .. brought more to the discussion than most everything else written in the thread.

Of course that's just my opinion.

[ИATAS]

everyone sucks according to NSB logic.

[EMACULATE]

Roger? How is Roger a great trainer? The only fighter he has that's accomplished something is Floyd. All his other fighters get beat or haven't done **** yet. I knew that fool was just biased against Roach.

The last time I checked Khan, PAC and linares all looked bad in there last fights. If you want to be technical Roach didn't discover or bring Manny up from the minors. Manny was bought to America and basically handed to roach around about the same time Mayweather was handed to Uncle Roger.Manny has been beaten by Morrales, Marquez IMO and has avoided, Soto, Guzman and a host of tough fights at 140. Has roach made Pacquaio better I say yes from the one handed fighter to a offensive world wind.


My favorite trainers right now are as follows.
ROGER MAYWEATHER
FLOYD MAYWEATHER
NACHO BERSTEIN
EMMANUEL STEWART
BUDDY MCGIRT
FREDDIE ROACH
CUNNINGHAM ONLY PROBLEM IS HE HAS MORE HEART AND FIGHT THAN HIS FIGHTER.

[Brother Jay]

everyone sucks according to NSB logic.

I don't think anyone feels that today's trainers suck.

Its just that so few have actually had a hand in molding these fighters as much as managing their affairs and overseeing their sparring and workouts.

Its a different era.

It used to be that a trainer used to get a young kid who was raw and rough around the edges and make him into something that you would recognize came from the trainer's signature style of instruction.

Guys like Futch and D'amato come to mind.

Even Mayweather Sr can take pride in saying that Floyd is truly his product .. not only because Jr is his son, but if you watch fights of Sr, Floyd is an improved version of a carbon copy.

Roach has no such signature aside from all the fighters that he trains lacking defense and an inside fight game.

Its not about "sucking". Its about what differences you can make in your fighters. No one, not even those interviewed about Freddie Roach, ever say that they can see Roach's brand in Pacquio's style. It isn't there. Pacquiao is basically the same fighter as he was before. JMM showed us all that. There's nothing new about Pacquiao that makes a difference in hi fights. Just because crackhead Jim Lampley decides to yell out "****!" or in the middle of heated exchanges decides to scream about Pacquiao having impressive footwork doesn't mean that it helped Pacquiao in any regard during his fights.

Great trainers produce great fighters. However, if the chemistry isn't right between teach and student greatness with never come to fruition.

Most trainers will tell any of you that you're lucky if you ever get that one special student. A kid/young man that will respond to your instructions as if you and he were of one mind.

If any of you have noticed, many of the great ones have come from father/son relationships.

Why you might as?

Because the bond and the discipline has already been established. Even when the pupil wants to quit or begins to resent the harsh realities of training to be great, a father figure can push and push and doesn't have to worry about interference.

Look at Roy Jones and his dad. Same with Shane Mosley. Even Mike Tyson and his adoptive father Cus D'amato had that relationship.

Sure there are cases where a fighter and a trainer don't have that paternal bond, but in many if not most cases that kind of bond develops because when you sweat, bleed and cry together, the bond is trust and empathy. That in itself fosters an unspoken respect and devotion.

Roach is simply not that kind of trainer. He's a good enough guy, but aside from Pacquiao I have never heard anyone speak about Roach that way. Roach is the kind of trainer that other boxers go to when already established and looking for a new trainer for an upcoming camp.

Personally, I think Pacquiao is fond of Roach because Roach has never treated him the way that Murad Muhammad did. Its that simple. There is little that Roach could add to Manny's style .. which is evidenced by the same jab, jab straight left that Manny has consistently stuck with.

Kev made a great observation and it rings true:

Most trainers today serve as managers and overseers of sparring and training.

They have conditioning coaches today. They have nutritionists today. They have sport psychologists today. It used to be a boxing trainer was ALL of those things. The times have changed, and only the trainers who have the opportunity to catch a talent young and devoted produce stars like Tyson, RJJ, Mosley and Mayweather.

Some would do well to read Kev's post and learn something about a sport they claim to love.

[KnockUTheFukOut]

I admire Robert Garcia, Virgil Hunter, Nacho, Bradley Trainer Diaz, I even like Adam Booth

truly great trainers build fighters from the GROUND UP, they don't just piggy back off of a talented fighter trying to get his career back on track after a loss, nothing wrong with reviving fighters careers at all but taking young fighters and helping them get to the Top is WAY MORE IMPRESSIVE!

fans think you have to train a team of fighters to become a great Trainer, that is FAR FROM THE TRUTH

[Brother Jay]

I admire Robert Garcia, Virgil Hunter, Nacho, Bradley Trainer Diaz, I even like Adam Booth

truly great trainers build fighters from the GROUND UP, they don't just piggy back off of a talented fighter trying to get his career back on track after a loss, nothing wrong with reviving fighters careers at all but taking young fighters and helping them get to the Top is WAY MORE IMPRESSIVE!

fans think you have to train a team of fighters to become a great Trainer, that is FAR FROM THE TRUTH

And you know this, my man!

[Uns]

IMO it did.

It took a question that called for subjective, opinion-based replies and put a distinction into place ... eliminating the "My Dad is tougher than your Dad" kind of nonsense that would have ensued.

The reply .. as brief and concise as it was .. brought more to the discussion than most everything else written in the thread.

Of course that's just my opinion.

I would like to know who he thinks is a great trainer today and why. It is sometimes easier to give a good answer, but not answer the Q. OK so we know what he think Roach is good at, but that is because we know more on him. Nacho also selects opponents for JMM, but he doesn't get as much critique because he is not as well known and for some reason JMM is excused for his tune up's or weaker opponent selection. Remember Nacho is also his manager and is on record for saying Khan is the wrong style match up for JMM.

The best politician's avoid questions and provide lovely answers that sway people with similar techniques.

I am pretty sure a lot of other trainers select opponents. For example Bradley may have chosen Pac, but he avoided Khan doing so because there is a chance of him losing. However I know Bradley also listens to his team, such as Alexander where he waited til Kotelnik happened. He kept saying his team said wait for it to build up, and he even vacated his WBC belt when Alexander was mandatory...

Khan wanted to get Mayweather through Bradley, while Bradley went to Pac by Cassamayor. There are always times when fighters avoid/skip someone for an easier road if it gets them to where they want.

I don't think anyone feels that today's trainers suck.

Its just that so few have actually had a hand in molding these fighters as much as managing their affairs and overseeing their sparring and workouts.

Its a different era.

It used to be that a trainer used to get a young kid who was raw and rough around the edges and make him into something that you would recognize came from the trainer's signature style of instruction.

Guys like Futch and D'amato come to mind.

Even Mayweather Sr can take pride in saying that Floyd is truly his product .. not only because Jr is his son, but if you watch fights of Sr, Floyd is an improved version of a carbon copy.

Roach has no such signature aside from all the fighters that he trains lacking defense and an inside fight game.

Its not about "sucking". Its about what differences you can make in your fighters. No one, not even those interviewed about Freddie Roach, ever say that they can see Roach's brand in Pacquio's style. It isn't there. Pacquiao is basically the same fighter as he was before. JMM showed us all that. There's nothing new about Pacquiao that makes a difference in hi fights. Just because crackhead Jim Lampley decides to yell out "****!" or in the middle of heated exchanges decides to scream about Pacquiao having impressive footwork doesn't mean that it helped Pacquiao in any regard during his fights.

Great trainers produce great fighters. However, if the chemistry isn't right between teach and student greatness with never come to fruition.

Most trainers will tell any of you that you're lucky if you ever get that one special student. A kid/young man that will respond to your instructions as if you and he were of one mind.

If any of you have noticed, many of the great ones have come from father/son relationships.

Why you might as?

Because the bond and the discipline has already been established. Even when the pupil wants to quit or begins to resent the harsh realities of training to be great, a father figure can push and push and doesn't have to worry about interference.

Look at Roy Jones and his dad. Same with Shane Mosley. Even Mike Tyson and his adoptive father Cus D'amato had that relationship.

Sure there are cases where a fighter and a trainer don't have that paternal bond, but in many if not most cases that kind of bond develops because when you sweat, bleed and cry together, the bond is trust and empathy. That in itself fosters an unspoken respect and devotion.

Roach is simply not that kind of trainer. He's a good enough guy, but aside from Pacquiao I have never heard anyone speak about Roach that way. Roach is the kind of trainer that other boxers go to when already established and looking for a new trainer for an upcoming camp.

Personally, I think Pacquiao is fond of Roach because Roach has never treated him the way that Murad Muhammad did. Its that simple. There is little that Roach could add to Manny's style .. which is evidenced by the same jab, jab straight left that Manny has consistently stuck with.

Kev made a great observation and it rings true:

Most trainers today serve as managers and overseers of sparring and training.

They have conditioning coaches today. They have nutritionists today. They have sport psychologists today. It used to be a boxing trainer was ALL of those things. The times have changed, and only the trainers who have the opportunity to catch a talent young and devoted produce stars like Tyson, RJJ, Mosley and Mayweather.

Some would do well to read Kev's post and learn something about a sport they claim to love.

I read into Kev's post, he already has written posts like that in other Pac/Roach threads previosuly, because that is the type of poster he is when it comes to these two or agenda's with other fighters/posters, not that he will admit it.

I agree that the father and son relationship matters because that is where you try harder for each other. Floyd Senior didn't respect Hatton and came in late etc... but Roach cares for Pac, even waking him up. After watching his documentary, it was clear he didn't care for say, his PA, but when it came to Pac, he was more sincere. Now, to get that feeling, you need a lot of time together, and that is where it becomes difficult.

But yes, I would like to know who is considered a great trainer, a name, not so hard to give really, if Roach is not considered one.

[Uns]

And you know this, my man!

I personally believe a great trainer can train more than one fighter, because it is further 'evidence' that it is more the fighter than them that is great. Of course the fighter is always the one that walks in the ring, but as with other sports, winning once is good and can be great, but winning something 5 times makes the argument of you being great stronger.

[D4thincarnation]

I can't post in that thread because the TS has me on ignore, but I'm wondering what active trainers can be considered great? If we're speaking on terms of trainers that have created a world class fighter and not just trained an ALREADY world class fighter, one who immediate comes to mind is Nacho Beristain. He's created a who stable of World Champions through out his career. But who else?

Nike's Air Jordans

Adidas's Originals Gazelle

Newton's Gravity

Asic's GEL-Nimbus

Some great trainers, and in this category Roach can't be considered great.