Comments Thread For: McGirt: Mayweather, Marquez - The True Greats of Our Era

[bojangles1987]

BULL**** Bojangles losses have a lot to do with who a fighter becomes. Once Manny went to top rank, they made sure to review his career and plan his fights accordingly. They made sure to avoid certain styles to enhance his chances of winning.

He isn't the same fighter persay but he may still have the same weaknesses that were present then that factored into the KO's, that being the tendency to expose himself when pushing for the KO.

Are you really arguing that Pacquiao from 2001 and on or so, when he began his ascent to the top of the sport, is the same guy that got knocked out? I exactly said losses have a lot to do with what a fighter becomes, Pacquiao in his case became a far better fighter, to the point that those knockout losses have little to do with Pacquiao's greatness, and they are pretty much irrelevant. No one is saying Pacquiao doesn't have a good chin or tough body because he suffered knockout losses, because he took hard ass shots from Erik Morales and Juan Manuel Marquez and Miguel Cotto and came at them like mad men afterwards.

And enough with "Top Rank matched him accordingly" that has nothing to do with this discussion. He has fought different styles since those knockout losses, and excelled. Miguel Cotto doesn't fight the same as MAB, Morales doesn't fight the same as Marquez, Ledwaba didn't fight the same as Jorge f***ing Solis. Hell, just looking at the fights everyone criticizes as him fighting the same style all the time, who the hell thinks Hatton, Cotto, Clottey, Margarito, Mosley, and Marquez all fight the same style, or are similar at all?

[Brother Jay]

Pretty sure Martinez-Williams 2 was at a catchweight of 157 or 158 or something, and he had all but one fight at middleweight over the course of like two years before the rematch, including their first fight, which wasn't a catchweight.

Doesn't matter. Its clear that neither man was looking for an advantage. Both were WW at some point. Martinez came in at 153.5 right before his match with Williams. Manny Pacquiao could always make the WW division limit because he was damn near making it on fight night since FW.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.

How can you berate Pacquiao so harshly for his wins over Barrera, Morales, Cotto, and others and then list Winky Wright as a positive for Paul Williams? Winky Wright was more done than any of the fighters you rip Pacquiao for.

I never ripped Pacquiao for his fights with Barrera. I simply point out that Barrera is EXTREMELY overrated .. and when asked who he beat, his supporters fall back to saying "You're crazy if you don't think Barrera is great".

Morales beat Pacquiao when all was equal, but the rematch was unwarranted because Morales had JUST been thoroughly dominated by Raheem. It was at a new weight that Morales did not do well at. In fact, Morales has been a **** fighter ever since leaving SBW. Any real fan knows that. I'm not even a Morales fan but I know his career.

KNOW YOUR BOXING.

Winky Wright wasn't done. My family knows Winky. Winky was robbed against both Taylor and Hopkins. He didn't leave boxing because he was washed up. he left because he's been robbed more times than any other current boxer. He was even robbed against Vargas. Go watch the fights.

Pacquiao was a big name before welterweight, as well.

This is true, but he wasn't anywhere near the status that his fraudulent WW wins put him. No one had him at the top. He had been outboxed by Morales, for X's sake.

Far bigger than Paul Williams has ever been. Before he fought Oscar, he and Marquez set the record for the most PPV buys of any below welterweight fight, and the guy already had the crazed fans he holds to this day. So sick of people saying he wasn't relevant or wasn't a big name fighter until he moved up to welterweight.

I never said that he wasn't heavily promoted. I said that he hadn't done anything of merit for anyone to call him the best ANYTHING. At that point, the only noteworthy wins he had worth mentioning came over Barrera. He hadn't fought Morales yet, and other than that he had 40 fights against BUMS.

Also, keep in mind that he didn't beat JMM in the first match. Most feel JMM won. Many definitely feel JMM won the second match.

How can you say Pacquiao waited for Oscar, Hatton, and Cotto to lose before fighting them? That literally makes no sense.

It makes perfectly good sense to anyone who is honest with himself. Pacquaio DID NOT ACTIVELY PURSUE matches with champions. Instead, Manny waited for men who were winning to be bested by OTHER FIGHTERS BEFORE MANNY WOULD EVEN CONSIDER FIGHTING THEM.

Oscar cherry picked Pacquiao, to confuse that fight as anything other than Oscar cherry picking a lightweight is plain wrong.

How did he cherry pick DLH?????

Freddie Roach was his trainer for the Mayweather fight!

Roach went on record to say that Mayweather showed him that DLH COULD NOT PULL THE TRIGGER ANYMORE! Basically, he knew what DLH's weaknesses were because he had inside information from having trained him! He knew what DLH could and could not do, and believed that with that knowledge Manny could beat him.

How is that DLH cherrypicking Manny?

Do you believe everything they print? Its a selling point. If DLH was truly cherrypicking, he wouldn't have come in at 145lbs .. a weight he hadn't competed at in 7 years. The match was tailor-made for the Manila Muppet to win. Who are you trying to kid?

Pacquiao has no power to make Oscar do anything, and was certainly not waiting for Oscar to lose to make a fight with him.

Maybe, but Arum most certainly does. And with Roach telling Arum that DLH is shot, Arum hedged his bets by stipulating that DLH come down to 145lbs since Manny is "oh so small".

Why would he have? What reason did he have to make a fight with a guy that had his last relevant fight at 154?

That's easy. DLH made a killing in the Pacquiao fight. In turn, the myth of Manny "The Giant Killer" Pacquaio was born. That's EXACTLY why he would do it. Without that fight Pacquiao would still be living in the shadow of his fights with JMM.

He didn't wait for Hatton to lose to fight him, he was at 130 when Mayweather beat Hatton and that was the last time Hatton lost before Pacquiao.

First off, cut the bull****. Manny Pacquiao has been coming in at 146lbs on fight night since being a SFW. You can't dispute this. So just shut the fcuk up about it.

Next, Pacquiao did wait for Hatton to lose to Mayweather. As I said, Manny Pacquiao has been making the WW division limit since his days as a SFW. He could have easily moved up and fought Hatton when Hatton was undefeated and flying high off of his win over Kostya Tszyu. Two years went by between Hatton beating Tszyu and getting KTFO by Mayweather.

So what you're saying is that in those two years, Pacquiao couldn't have challenged the man who beat a HOF and elite boxer? That's what you're saying?

Seriously?

PACQUIAO WANTED NO PART OF THE KID WHO BEAT KOSTYA TSZYU.

END OF STORY.

Cotto was coming off two wins, and if you don't think he beat Clottey than Clottey was coming off a win, you can't have it both ways.

Hahaha ... Cotto fought a bum named Jennings for a paper title, then bodyslammed Clottey to win a match he was losing. Get real. You have NEVER seen Cotto get that dirty in his career. He low blowed Clottey, slammed him, and was desperate to win so he could lose his paper title to guess who?

Guess what? Most fighters lose. Pacquiao lost. That doesn't make his wins less relevant, because almost every single great fighter ever lost at some point, including guys considered among the greatest in recent memory such as Hopkins, Morales, Barrera, Marquez, Roy, Toney, the Klitschkos, so on and so on.

Its not just the losses that take away from Manny Pacquiao's legacy.

Its his first 40 fights against BUMS.

Its using his vacant paper titles to case for being a 8 division titlist.

Its using weight stipulations to win on the scales before the match ever happens.

Its the refusal to take tests for 3 years. Its accusing USADA of being corrupt but suing Floyd for expressing his opinion.

Its claiming that you are now a complete fighter, but stipulating that a LW has to come up to WW .. despite you being able to make 135 according to you. What's worse is that LW embarrasses you, and all you can cite is foot cramping and sore on your foot.

Its claiming that he would take a paycut for THE FANS and then showing that his fans really don't mean **** to him by reneging.

Its claiming to be willing to fight ANYTIME and then saying May 5th is out of the question because he got a cut in November that won't heal by May of the following year.

Its seeking a fight with Bradley when there were other WWs and jrMWs that you could have made a fight with.

You and your fellow peasants need to get a dose of reality. Manny Pacquiao has many reasons for which to be criticized and berated. He does not live up to the expectations of how a champion should conduct his career. He does NOT fight the #1 and #2 fighters in the divisions he competes in. He does not beat every man put in front of him. He did not win a title at WW without asking for special treatment.

The guy's an entertaining fighter. I watch him. We all do. I won't pay to watch him though because he's become a gimmick fighter since fighting Diaz.

And you REFUSE to address the FACT that Manny Pacquiao waited on 6 different occasions for 6 different boxers to lose before he would even consider stepping in the ring with them.

I won't post it, but do you remember the YouTube video where Freddie Roach is asked why he won't face Shane Mosley? He said that Manny won't unless Shane came down to 142lbs. Do you remember what happened next?

Roach was asked "Why? You didn't fight DLH at 142lbs."

Roach replied "Shane isn't DLH. He's a better fighter."

That's PROOF positive that Manny Pacquiao makes it a habit of ducking fighters as long as they are perceived as dangerous. As soon as Mayweather dominated Shane's asss, Pacquiao jumped up out of his seat and started singing Marvin Gaye's "Let's get it on" in broken English.

Your childish notions allow you to carry on, but you have yet to ever really write anything that hasn't amounted to more than your own confusion.

Factor in EVERYTHING. That's the only way there will be an accurate picture from which you can better your limited understanding, bojangles1987.

[hugh grant]

You can't have it both ways. Either take the whole resume or don't.

I have taken the whole resume, but Pac losing dont mean hes not the best fighter of this era. Him losing to Singsurat isnt a barrier to him being the greatest of this era.
it didnt stop him being the best FOTD so there is no argument for it to be a barrier to him being the best fighter of this era....common sense.

Pac is beating the likes of Cotto now, so people can understand probably that Pac didnt have a proper trainer and he was weight drained and starving or other and other reasons. Pac have made improvements, whereas Floyd has probably been constant, learnt it at a young age and hasnt really got that much better but just reached his peak earlier.

Pac fights, Floyd dont and thats why Floyds resumes isnt as good as Pacs. If he wanted it to be he knew what he had to do, but refused to do it. With that approach to boxing he dont deserve the acclaim. Future boxing stars cant and shouldnt be allowed to follow Floyds example.

[26 and Live]

Aye Brother Jay, you forgot to show them this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEnPEz_rSoU

Edit: I don't know how to embed the video but it's called Cherry Picking with Freddie Roach... I don't know how people continue to argue for the legitimacy of Pac's WW career when Freddie Roach explained the match making process in no uncertain terms...

[zab191]

No sign of Pac being one of the greats of this era.

[FJRod]

Wow lots of ubber s h i t! How anyone can say pac is not one of the greatest of our generation is a mistery to me. You are either a ******, a hater, or a child. Plain and simple May would probably win a match between the two but Pac will be known as a greater fighter. How can you claim Marquez is greater(Favorite fighter after Cotto) than the man he failed to beat?(we can argue all day about the outcome but Pac won) May is the most gifted but Pac is greater! Get over it it just goes to show who's a real fan of the sport and who's a S PE RM sucking F A G! Red K me Biatches!!!

[bojangles1987]

Doesn't matter. Its clear that neither man was looking for an advantage. Both were WW at some point. Martinez came in at 153.5 right before his match with Williams. Manny Pacquiao could always make the WW division limit because he was damn near making it on fight night since FW.

THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE.



I never ripped Pacquiao for his fights with Barrera. I simply point out that Barrera is EXTREMELY overrated .. and when asked who he beat, his supporters fall back to saying "You're crazy if you don't think Barrera is great".

Morales beat Pacquiao when all was equal, but the rematch was unwarranted because Morales had JUST been thoroughly dominated by Raheem. It was at a new weight that Morales did not do well at. In fact, Morales has been a **** fighter ever since leaving SBW. Any real fan knows that. I'm not even a Morales fan but I know his career.

KNOW YOUR BOXING.

Winky Wright wasn't done. My family knows Winky. Winky was robbed against both Taylor and Hopkins. He didn't leave boxing because he was washed up. he left because he's been robbed more times than any other current boxer. He was even robbed against Vargas. Go watch the fights.



This is true, but he wasn't anywhere near the status that his fraudulent WW wins put him. No one had him at the top. He had been outboxed by Morales, for X's sake.



I never said that he wasn't heavily promoted. I said that he hadn't done anything of merit for anyone to call him the best ANYTHING. At that point, the only noteworthy wins he had worth mentioning came over Barrera. He hadn't fought Morales yet, and other than that he had 40 fights against BUMS.

Also, keep in mind that he didn't beat JMM in the first match. Most feel JMM won. Many definitely feel JMM won the second match.



It makes perfectly good sense to anyone who is honest with himself. Pacquaio DID NOT ACTIVELY PURSUE matches with champions. Instead, Manny waited for men who were winning to be bested by OTHER FIGHTERS BEFORE MANNY WOULD EVEN CONSIDER FIGHTING THEM.



How did he cherry pick DLH?????

Freddie Roach was his trainer for the Mayweather fight!

Roach went on record to say that Mayweather showed him that DLH COULD NOT PULL THE TRIGGER ANYMORE! Basically, he knew what DLH's weaknesses were because he had inside information from having trained him! He knew what DLH could and could not do, and believed that with that knowledge Manny could beat him.

How is that DLH cherrypicking Manny?

Do you believe everything they print? Its a selling point. If DLH was truly cherrypicking, he wouldn't have come in at 145lbs .. a weight he hadn't competed at in 7 years. The match was tailor-made for the Manila Muppet to win. Who are you trying to kid?



Maybe, but Arum most certainly does. And with Roach telling Arum that DLH is shot, Arum hedged his bets by stipulating that DLH come down to 145lbs since Manny is "oh so small".



That's easy. DLH made a killing in the Pacquiao fight. In turn, the myth of Manny "The Giant Killer" Pacquaio was born. That's EXACTLY why he would do it. Without that fight Pacquiao would still be living in the shadow of his fights with JMM.



First off, cut the bull****. Manny Pacquiao has been coming in at 146lbs on fight night since being a SFW. You can't dispute this. So just shut the fcuk up about it.

Next, Pacquiao did wait for Hatton to lose to Mayweather. As I said, Manny Pacquiao has been making the WW division limit since his days as a SFW. He could have easily moved up and fought Hatton when Hatton was undefeated and flying high off of his win over Kostya Tszyu. Two years went by between Hatton beating Tszyu and getting KTFO by Mayweather.

So what you're saying is that in those two years, Pacquiao couldn't have challenged the man who beat a HOF and elite boxer? That's what you're saying?

Seriously?

PACQUIAO WANTED NO PART OF THE KID WHO BEAT KOSTYA TSZYU.

END OF STORY.



Hahaha ... Cotto fought a bum named Jennings for a paper title, then bodyslammed Clottey to win a match he was losing. Get real. You have NEVER seen Cotto get that dirty in his career. He low blowed Clottey, slammed him, and was desperate to win so he could lose his paper title to guess who?



Its not just the losses that take away from Manny Pacquiao's legacy.

Its his first 40 fights against BUMS.

Its using his vacant paper titles to case for being a 8 division titlist.

Its using weight stipulations to win on the scales before the match ever happens.

Its the refusal to take tests for 3 years. Its accusing USADA of being corrupt but suing Floyd for expressing his opinion.

Its claiming that you are now a complete fighter, but stipulating that a LW has to come up to WW .. despite you being able to make 135 according to you. What's worse is that LW embarrasses you, and all you can cite is foot cramping and sore on your foot.

Its claiming that he would take a paycut for THE FANS and then showing that his fans really don't mean **** to him by reneging.

Its claiming to be willing to fight ANYTIME and then saying May 5th is out of the question because he got a cut in November that won't heal by May of the following year.

Its seeking a fight with Bradley when there were other WWs and jrMWs that you could have made a fight with.

You and your fellow peasants need to get a dose of reality. Manny Pacquiao has many reasons for which to be criticized and berated. He does not live up to the expectations of how a champion should conduct his career. He does NOT fight the #1 and #2 fighters in the divisions he competes in. He does not beat every man put in front of him. He did not win a title at WW without asking for special treatment.

The guy's an entertaining fighter. I watch him. We all do. I won't pay to watch him though because he's become a gimmick fighter since fighting Diaz.

And you REFUSE to address the FACT that Manny Pacquiao waited on 6 different occasions for 6 different boxers to lose before he would even consider stepping in the ring with them.

I won't post it, but do you remember the YouTube video where Freddie Roach is asked why he won't face Shane Mosley? He said that Manny won't unless Shane came down to 142lbs. Do you remember what happened next?

Roach was asked "Why? You didn't fight DLH at 142lbs."

Roach replied "Shane isn't DLH. He's a better fighter."

That's PROOF positive that Manny Pacquiao makes it a habit of ducking fighters as long as they are perceived as dangerous. As soon as Mayweather dominated Shane's asss, Pacquiao jumped up out of his seat and started singing Marvin Gaye's "Let's get it on" in broken English.

Your childish notions allow you to carry on, but you have yet to ever really write anything that hasn't amounted to more than your own confusion.

Factor in EVERYTHING. That's the only way there will be an accurate picture from which you can better your limited understanding, bojangles1987.

You are just making stuff up. Over and over and over. Which is normal for you, and why I don't bother. Not sure why I did this time.

[Elotero]

Chavez fought a catchweight against Whitaker, 145 wouldn't you know. He got his ass whipped, but if he had won would you trying to discredit his entire career as well?

Did you forget to mention that that was a SUPERFIGHT?? Thee superfight of that era?

Catchweights are a special part of boxing. They are supposed to be made when its a Superfight. Not 3 times a year, not every other fight.

Why would I have a problem with the 2 greatest fighters of their era fighting? Why would I discredit that? Both Sweat Pea and Chavez took 0's boy. They took on savage challenges at natural and unnatural weights and still dominated. They weren't handicapping the **** out of every other fight. They took on youngsters, punchers, boxers, runners, puerto ricans, africans, African-americans, Europeans etc.

Manny been fighting the same style guy for a minute and when they threw JMM at him he showed he hasnt really improved as a fighter. Meh.

I seen ODH go up in weight too. And when he did he fought the best, Not the 4th best or 3rd best. He didnt always win but he fought all the quality guys.

Mayweather and JMM, greatest of our era. 100% agree.

[hugh grant]

Mayweather and JMM, greatest of our era. 100% agree.

FLoyd and JMM are greats of this era no doubt. But countless people think Pac is the greatest of the era.

Most people acknowledge if Pac isnt the greatest of this era, he certainly is one of them to not offend some Floyd fans or JMM fans and being diplomatic.

Moral of the story, stop boasting about thinking FLoyd or JMM is the best fighter of the era. Because there are more people who could and will boast that Pac is the greatest of the era with interest.

[Tony B.]

No he didnt. Saying Pac cant be the greatest fighter of this era as he lost to Singuratt, no matter what Pac did since then even if he won the heavyweight title at 5f6 is not a good point and not good logic!!!

That would be like saying Hagler couldnt be the greatest middlweight of his era, or worse still of all time as Hagler had a little blemish on his record in his early days.

Improvement is taken into consideration, it dont matter one bit that pac got knocked out, its what he did since that KO and being knocked out early in career is not barrier to being the best fighter of this era. Especially with underachievers like Floyd as your competiton and peers. Hardly SRR is Floyd?

Completely ****** to compare Haglers losses to Pacquiaos. Marvelous Marvin lost a couple of close decisions on his way up to excellent fighters (Monroe and Watts) he avenged both of them TWICE by KO! He was never flattened to the canvas in defense of his WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP where he lay squirming and crying. I agree that Pacquiao is a great fighter and belongs among the top 5 of his era. But he is not the god that his fans make him out to be. You say a majority of people think he is the best but I don't think I could find 10 non-Filipinos who believe that. I'm Puerto Rican. If you ask most Puerto Ricans who the greatest fighter who ever lived was, most will say either Trinidad or Gomez. But thats just emotions and ethnic pride. They were great, but flawed. Pacquiao is great, but flawed. We are talking here about the absolute elites. I personally think Floyd Mayweather is a ****-talking little punk.....but his magnificent skills and resume cannot be denied. When Pacquiao was being KO'ed, Floyd was destroying top-notch fighters like Hernandez and Corrales. That was many years ago and he didn't just beat them, he obliterated them. And he is still the only man to desicively beat Marquez. EVERY other Marquez loss was either controversial or out-right robbery! The only fight that Floyd ever struggled in was against Castillo....and he set the record straight in the immediate rematch. Pacquiao gets alot of credit because he is a super nice guy who is a class-act......while Floyd is a ****y loud-mouth. I (and many others) appreciate Pacquiao for being a respectful gentleman in and out of the ring. But that doesnt change the fact that Floyd has a superior resume. And as many times as Pacfans want to scream, "Marquez was never able to beat Manny!".....the fact is that Manny was never able to beat him either........