Vitali Klitschko vs Joe Louis - Who wins?

[crold1]

Context, context, context. And less Legendary Tales please.

Back in those days,the safety rules weren't what they are today. There was no going to the neutral corner during a knockdown. The opponent would just stand over you, two feet away, while the ref was counting. You get up, and you get beat up some more. Stoppages didn't come by as easy either. It was the equivalent of MMA's past years of rooster fighting, before they came up with some progressive rules to make it more of a sport.

There was no big scandals of the opposite trainer catching you with illegal wraps, or taking the padding out of your glove. None of this technical stuff that's BIG NEWS now.

So when someone got killed or sent into vegetative state by another fighter, it was probably due to combination of what I just described above, and not because Max Baer or Jack Dempsey were these Monster Killers of the past that today's Fighters couldn't hold a candle to. You can spin it that way, but it doesn't make it true.

Being fair, if you're going to criticize historical analogies, your rebuttal ought to have the right frame of reference. Louis was champion after the neutral corner rules came to being, their graphic illustration first a dramatic factor in Tunney-Dempsey II. Watch Louis-Schmeling II and you'll see Louis head to the neutral when told.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANY5f...eature=related

There is a fair point to be made about how loose referee's were about when the action is halted, but the rules haven't changed much since the 1930s. Glove size and fight length are key differences. The era the fight took place in could be a factor.

Louis beat quality heavyweights of roughly the same size as the Klitschko's. Buddy Baer isn't highly regarded historically but he'd be a revelation in this era and had real skill for a big man (good jab, nice shoulder rolls in defense). Abe Simon is easily a top five contender in 2011 and would be a fiercer challenge for the Klitschko's than anyone either has fought in the last couple years. Vitali is too tough for me to think Louis just warps him but the opposite is just as silly. Louis beat fighters closer to Vitali then the opposite. Vitali has never seen anything remotely on the level of as prime Louis.

[cupocity303]

ridiCULOus, its like comparing a great propeler bomber from the 60s with one of today. At the same time, you can't take away all the wars won by the 60s bomber and his acomplishments.

In Louis time there was no growing hormones or steroids to make giants and 6 foot was a tall fighter and less face it. Giant Vitali will never be consider as the best HW champion of all times.

Did this analogy make anyone else burst into laughter.

[cupocity303]

Being fair, if you're going to criticize historical analogies, your rebuttal ought to have the right frame of reference. Louis was champion after the neutral corner rules came to being, their graphic illustration first a dramatic factor in Tunney-Dempsey II. Watch Louis-Schmeling II and you'll see Louis head to the neutral when told.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANY5f...eature=related

There is a fair point to be made about how loose referee's were about when the action is halted, but the rules haven't changed much since the 1930s. Glove size and fight length are key differences. The era the fight took place in could be a factor.

Louis beat quality heavyweights of roughly the same size as the Klitschko's. Buddy Baer isn't highly regarded historically but he'd be a revelation in this era and had real skill for a big man (good jab, nice shoulder rolls in defense). Abe Simon is easily a top five contender in 2011 and would be a fiercer challenge for the Klitschko's than anyone either has fought in the last couple years. Vitali is too tough for me to think Louis just warps him but the opposite is just as silly. Louis beat fighters closer to Vitali then the opposite. Vitali has never seen anything remotely on the level of as prime Louis.

I was talking in context to Max Baer killing two people, not Joe Louis.

Second, I disagree with the red point strongly and have explained why in the past.

The figthers you posted who were as tall as Vitali are garbage. I believe I already posted footage of one tall guy (Buddy Baer?), who fights nothing like Vitali and doesn't utilize his height advantage at all, lowering himself to Joe Louis' size. And he still caught Louis and dropped him.

You are overrating his opposition based on nothing but nostalgia, and underrating modern opponents just the same. To throw you own words back at ya, Louis has never seen anything remotely on the level of as prime Vitali. The odds of Vitali dominating everyone on Louis' resume are greater than Louis dominating Vitali's. And his toughness & chin in a losing effort to Lennox Lewis, combined with his consistent dominance in other fights, is more than enough evidence.

[Brockton Lip]

This is more historical nonsense which has nothing to do with anything.

I hate to do this again but prime Samuel Peter or Brewster >>> Max Baer. I think both guys proved their chins vs Wlad, and both did well in the first fights. Max's power to kill men may have something to do with the lack of wrapping hands in those days, and smaller gloves.

And spare us the Undisputed crap. Times were simpler back then. You beat one guy, and you win the whole thing. It's a fallacious standard you have set on Vitali, that because he missed his first and ONLY opportunity to win the Undisputed Title, and the guy with the Undisputed Title retired, spreading all the vacant belts around as a result, therefore somehow Vitali failed by never winning a Undisputed Title. Even though he won the WBC and reclaimed the WBC again after 4 years of retirement.

It's fallacious and dishonest. You cry and complain at the lack of respect ATG's are getting, but look at your girlish ways of arguing your points, disrespecting and undermining Vitali's career because of one fight that he lost.

This guy is trying way too hard. Troll alert folk, nothing to see here. Move along everyone.

[crold1]

I was talking in context to Max Baer killing two people, not Joe Louis.

Second, I disagree with the red point strongly and have explained why in the past.

The figthers you posted who were as tall as Vitali are garbage. I believe I already posted footage of one tall guy (Buddy Baer?), who fights nothing like Vitali and doesn't utilize his height advantage at all, lowering himself to Joe Louis' size. And he still caught Louis and dropped him.

You are overrating his opposition based on nothing and underrating modern opponents just the same. To throw you own words back at ya, Louis has never seen anything remotely on the level of as prime Vitali. The odds of Vitali dominating everyone on Louis' resume are greater than Louis dominating Vitali's. And his toughness & chin in a losing effort to Lennox Lewis, combined with his consistent dominance in other fights proves it.

I think Louis would have eviscerated the Lennox who showed up that night. Vitali made his rep on winning a few early rounds against a great one before his face fell apart and was the last man hurt (even if he deserved another round). Louis would have leveled a Lewis who dared to show up that slow and at a career high weight.

I'm sure you disagree. All good.

We can at least agree on the neutral corner.

[cupocity303]

This guy is trying way too hard. Troll alert folk, nothing to see here. Move along everyone.

Baseless Ad-Hominem's. I'm mildly curious why you picked out that particular post to say this, but it doesn't matter. If you have something of relevance to say, say it.

If not, you keep it moving. Others can make up their own mind whether to respond or not.

[tyger]

People as a whole know so little about boxing and what skills fighters beyond 3 years ago had. They see someone now and think they are the best. Louis would bust up Klitschko in 7 rounds and Vitali would retire, sitting in his corner wondering why he was unable to hit the Brown Bomber squarely.

[cupocity303]

I think Louis would have eviscerated the Lennox who showed up that night. Vitali made his rep on winning a few early rounds against a great one before his face fell apart and was the last man hurt (even if he deserved another round). Louis would have leveled a Lewis who dared to show up that slow and at a career high weight.

I'm sure you disagree. All good.

We can at least agree on the neutral corner.

You can choose that route, and critique his loss to Lennox Lewis, like most do. But I'll take the positives from it. Mainly that aside from winning fights easily on a consistent basis, he can also take a good punch and keep fighting, if pushed into the deep waters. And stylistically, only a few could push him into that deep water. And Louis isn't of them. The basic punches Joe Louis throws and landed from fight to fight, he couldn't land on Vitali. And basing your argument on a few victories over giants who didn't fight like giants (i.e. Buddy Bear) at all isn't gonna cut it.

It's nothing but Nostalgia.

[crold1]

You can choose that route, and critique his loss to Vitali. But I'll take the positives from it. Mainly that aside from winning fights easily, he can also take a good punch and keep fighting, if pushed into the deep waters. And stylistically, only a few could push him into that deep water. And Louis isn't of them. The basis punches Joe Louis landed from fight to fight, he couldn't land on Vitali. And basing your argument on a few victories over giants who didn't fight like giants (i.e. Buddy Bear) at all isn't gonna cut it.

Whose loss to Vitali? You mean Lewis's win. And basing your prognostication on wins over fighters who can't dream of stringing together the punches Louis could (best combination power puncher in Heavyweight history IMO) doesn't cut it either.

[cupocity303]

People as a whole know so little about boxing and what skills fighters beyond 3 years ago had. They see someone now and think they are the best. Louis would bust up Klitschko in 7 rounds and Vitali would retire, sitting in his corner wondering why he was unable to hit the Brown Bomber squarely.

The only thing I got from this post are, your lack of persuasive argumentation skills.