What if Ali hadn't had the 3 1/2 year layoff???

[Johnwoo8686]

Clay was never a slave. Are you kidding?

White people loved Clay. The mob decided the real gangsta, Sonny Liston, had to go, because white audiences (ie the people with money) weren't into Liston as heavyweight champ. They feared Sonny.

Clay had his silly routines and white people LOVED him. He was silly and made faces and clowned and made them laugh, which is what they wanted from black people: entertainment.

Clay's problems stemmed from when he decided to become an angry black ****** and change his name to Muhammad Ali. He turned into something even more threatening than Liston, a black militant.

That's when his problems began. It was his decision to do this.

Dude whites HATED Clay because he was black and ****y. Many hoped Liston would knock him out only to be disappointed that he won. None of us know what it was like to be black in the 1960s so lets not even try to act as if we do. We know the history and we can't claim just because a guy was rich doesn't mean he wasn't treated like **** by his own countrymen!
Look at how Joe Louis was treated despite doing everything right.

[Porter's Dad]

So other people werent treated badly? He was the only person in the world that was treated badly? People in America have NO idea what being treated badly means. Go to some parts of Asia/South America/Africa to see what REAL problems are. Where your entire city is beheaded and dumped in a pit with 100,000 people.

Compared to what? Being forced to go join a war? being called names by a few racists? not being able to eat in a few restaraunts. You have NO idea what treated badly even means.

Try living with 40 people in 1 room eating your own feces just so you dont die while avoiding lynching mobs that would kill off hundreds of thousands of people.

but yea, he had it real bad, poor guy. 99.9% of the country wouldve killed their own mother just to switch places with Ali.

Do some Homework, find some real History books. If what he went thru was "real hard" then sign me up, I would gladly become a rich black man in the 60's with a boatload of talent, people can call me anything they want.

He was the #2 most adored person in the country after Nixon FFS. Real hard life. Those kids in Laos have no idea !

I don't even know why I'm wasting time on a bitter little troll like you but here we go.

Ali made a stand because he could. You can give all the extreme examples you want but Ali had a platform to point out the bull**** that was going on.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say you're white (something just gives it away). You'll never understand what it's like to be from an ethnic minority. Just because there are people in worse situations doesn't mean he hasn't got a right to say what he felt was wrong. Look at you, belittling the idea of people thinking you're sub-human. You'll never understand how that feels psychologically. Just because he had fame doesn't mean he should accept it. It takes more balls to speak out.

Ali would've been more of a sell-out if he shut his mouth. As it is, he told them to screw themselves.

The fact that it bothers butt-hurt little ****s like you is all the more enjoyable.

[Grinderman]

Dude whites HATED Clay because he was black and ****y. Many hoped Liston would knock him out only to be disappointed that he won. None of us know what it was like to be black in the 1960s so lets not even try to act as if we do. We know the history and we can't claim just because a guy was rich doesn't mean he wasn't treated like **** by his own countrymen!
Look at how Joe Louis was treated despite doing everything right.

That's just not true. Generally, they liked Clay and hated Ali, is more to the point. Liston was seen as a thug. Clay was funny and made faces and clowned and was seen at the time as less threatening. He was good for business -- Liston was bad for business.

[Grinderman]

If he didnt have the lay off he would have fought Frazier earlier and lost and he never would be even more brain dead today. Ali lost to norton only after having 13 tuneups from his layoff and being the ripe old age of 31...ie. right when most hw's hit their prime. I love Ali fans trying to argue he wouldn't have aged as much if he hadn't had 3.5 years off. Such garbage. Vitali has 4 years off due to a serious injury from having a previous career as a kick boxer...Ali fans claim he wasnt prime because he once was kicked in the shins by a wrestler and took 3.5 years off just chillen...

True -- Vitali's comeback from a 3+ year layoff due to injury to be as good as or arguably even better than before is not given nearly enough credit because he's not a Yank. It's one of the great sporting feats of recent times.

[-KPB-]

That's just not true. Generally, they liked Clay and hated Ali, is more to the point. Liston was seen as a thug. Clay was funny and made faces and clowned and was seen at the time as less threatening. He was good for business -- Liston was bad for business.

Generally, you dont know what your talking about......

Why did they tell Joe Louis not to celebrate whenever he won a fight....surely they would have liked him as well...he wasnt a thug either....

[Dubblechin]

What do you think his career would have ended up like??? Would he have ever been beaten??? Would he have lost to Joe Frazier at all??? Would his skills have fallen as fast as they did in the mid-1970's??? How long do you think his prime would have actually lasted???

I really would like to hear all answers. Ali's prime is almost universally looked at as 1964-1967, than he had the layoff/exile. I am pretty sure no one thinks Ali was still prime when he returned in 1970 and 1971. His speed had slown greatly, and he had lost a great deal of his stamina. He gained a bit of punching power arguably, but his reflexes dropped significantly and he was forced to take on much more punishment. He also couldn't throw as many lengthy and effective combinations. If Ali was forced into the layoff/exile, he and Frazier would most likely have met in 1969. Ali would have been 27, in his peak physically, and Frazier would be in his peak too. Ali would not have lost his speed and reflexes, simply because he would have continued fighting during those three and a half years. It's an interesting thing to think about.

Watch Ali-Quarry 1, and you can tell the vast difference in Ali in 1970 as opposed to 1967. Don't get me wrong, Ali was still a great fighter post-layoff, but not in his prime anymore. I'd say between 1970-1972, Ali was past his prime but still great. Than, I'd say between 1973-1975, Ali was past his prime but still really good. Between 1976-1977, Ali was way past his prime, but still able to fight and be a decent boxer. After that, he was so far gone it was truly sad. I don't think his skills would have fallen as fast they did if he hadn't missed 3 1/2 years. He could have arguably been in his prime until 1971 or even 1972. He could have been a really good and great fighter until 1977 or maybe even 1978. He wouldn't have taken as much punishment as he did after the layoff, because he would have had his speed and reflexes for more years.

Finally, I can't see Joe Frazier beating a prime Ali. Coming off 3 1/2 years of no boxing, and two so-so warm up fights, Ali still had him 6-6-1 going into the final rounds. Watch round 1 in the Fight of the Century, and I think thats the closest to what Ali-Frazier in 1969 would have been like. Ali by UD.

What do you think Ali's career would have been like if he didn't have to take the 3 1/2 year layoff???

Actually, when Muhammad Ali was banned from boxing in 1967, Joe Frazier was his number one contender. And when the WBA announced its eight-man elimination tournament that year, Frazier didn't want to participate because he was already ranked #1, and he didn't feel he should have to compete against seven other guys for a title shot.

Also, keep in mind that Ali was wildly unpopular by the general public at large when he had his boxing license revoked. He had been making more than a million dollars a fight when he first won the crown, but by the time he went on his European tour and came home to fight Terrell and Williams and Folley, he was making under a million for each defense, and he was making less and less each time out. People just didn't want to pay to see him in the U.S.

If Ali hadn't been exiled, I think the fight crowds at his shows would've gotten uglier and uglier, and the checks smaller, forcing him to fight primarily overseas.

I think Ali and Frazier would've fought in the fall of 1967 ... not 1969. And Frazier was still very green at that point. I'm sure a prime Ali would've won a fairly easy decision or possibly stopped Joe later in the fight ... and there probably wouldn't have been a series at all between the two.

Ali would've gone on to beat Quarry, Mac Foster, Bonavena, Buster Mathis, maybe Floyd Patterson again, Bob Foster, and every other contender they put in front of him from 1967 to 1971.

By 1971, I think Ali's legal bills would've ****** away most of his purses. And I think he would've been approaching Joe Louis' record of 25 successful title defenses. But if he'd been free all that time, I don't think the Supreme Court would've overruled his conviction of draft evasion.

In reality, after being stripped of his belt, losing his ability to earn a living for almost four years, and then losing to Frazier, the Supreme Court felt a little sorry for him and thought he'd been punished enough.

If none of that had taken place, I don't think they'd have felt sorry for him. I think people in the U.S. still would've wanted to see him punished, and they wouldn't want him to surpass Louis, and I think Ali's Supreme Court appeal would've failed and he would've been sent to prison for five years (which is what he was sentenced to serve).

He'd have gotten out in 1976 ... penniless and in his late 30s ... and mad as hell for losing his money and his chance at history.

He may have tried a comeback. If so, he probably would've gone to South Africa in the late 70s and fought the likes of Gerrie Coetzee or Kallie Knoetzee. Those would've been dangerous crowd situations. Knoetzee wasn't very good, but Coetzee was at the time. He might've stopped Ali ... and who knows what that would have done for race relations in South Africa back then. Or he may have been cannon fodder for Gerry Cooney.

If he didn't box, he may have gotten into politics. The Vietnam War was over at that point, and he would've had some political clout with the anti-war movement that voted Jimmy Carter into office. Maybe he'd have run for office in Illinois (he had a home in Chicago) against the first Mayor Daley. Maybe he'd have campaigned with Jesse Jackson when he ran for President in 1984 and 1988 ... or maybe Ali would've run for president.

Today, he'd still be able to speak, but he'd probably be one of the most villified athletes of the century, not one of the most beloved.

[KingTito]

still pissed off about your baby coming out black eh?

Hahahaha! That was funny.

To answer the thread though, it's really hard to say. We certainly would've seen more of a prime Ali.

[Johnwoo8686]

True -- Vitali's comeback from a 3+ year layoff due to injury to be as good as or arguably even better than before is not given nearly enough credit because he's not a Yank. It's one of the great sporting feats of recent times.

Taking 3 and a half years off in the 70s is not like taking 3 and a half years off in the 2000s. There have been advances in nutrition and sports sciences. Now athletes have better nutrition, training regimens, and take a lot less fights in between years. Now fighters can fight well into their 30s and even 40s because of these advances, that was not very common in the 70s.

[MARKBNLV]

Shouldve shipped his ass to nam instead of wasting tax payer money in a prison. Maybe he wouldve became a man instead of a racist. I guess history changes everything and people forget who Muhammed Ali really was, a racist who hated whitey's and everything about the government who decided he didnt like the countries rules and would follow only the ones he liked.

I could not agree more Ali was a scummy person,one of the best fighters ever but as a man he was racist trash.And he ducked the war like a bia.

[Dubblechin]

Taking 3 and a half years off in the 70s is not like taking 3 and a half years off in the 2000s. There have been advances in nutrition and sports sciences. Now athletes have better nutrition, training regimens, and take a lot less fights in between years. Now fighters can fight well into their 30s and even 40s because of these advances, that was not very common in the 70s.

Plus, Vitali's been busted before for taking PEDs to recover from injuries -- that's how he got kicked off the Olympic team.

God knows what he's taking now. Because he's actually BETTER now than he was before he retired.

And athletes who were injury-prone during their careers -- and who've been caught juicing in the past -- don't tend to come back better than ever at 40 ... without some obvious "help."

It doesn't take a genius to figure that out.