The greatest defensive artists of all time

[Alx.]

will o the wisp! couldnt hit that man with a machine gun

sweet pea

mayweather

ali

jones junior

young tyson

a young james toney as well

i love watching defensive fighters, some people should learn to appreciate all sides of boxing

[Brother Jay]

Ricardo Lopez and James Toney IMO mastered the art of defense

You said it! Ricardo Lopez was probably the most underrated boxer in the last 30 years of boxing. The man was incredible. I know a lot of people love Chavez, as Chavez was undeniably a masterful pugilist, but for my money I'd pick Ricardo Lopez over Chavez any day. Lopez was a gladiator. That dude was a viking in the ring where a helmet with one of the horns broken off. I mean, if you haven't watched Lopez fight, I'd suggest doing so. He's a killer.

I have a greater appreciation for people who can control opponents with their jab and offense.

Ahhh .. Larry Holmes made that approach an art form. IMO, no one did that better than Holmes. His jab was legendary. It opened all doors for his offense, and was the backbone for his defense.

Good comment!

Good thread.



^ Great video, everyone should check out.

Thanks for the video! I'm glad this thread inspired you to share!

yeah man, it's a shame where toney is at right now.



@ 1:55

but i couldn't agree with you more. a lot of people overlook the wondrous subtleties in this game and i think we can thank the rocky movies for that, lol.

First off, you are a sharing machine, dude. Thanks you again for another great vid, Brother Body.

Next, I agree with you to a point. Rocky has celebrated the slugfest and led non-boxing fans and casual fans to use that criteria to judge how good or entertaining a match is. Still, the majority of the world has always loved instant gratification. That's what slugfests are.

Slugfests are like rushed ******s: Rather than be great for 36 minutes a brawler seeks to be great for 9 minutes. Most times when brawlers get passed those 9 minutes they've blown their load and have little else to offer except the occasional haymaker here and there. Ask Tommy Hearns about that in his fight against Marvin Hagler. Now I'm in no way taking anything away from Hearns as a fighter, but I thought the reference fit my agenda nicely.

I'd like to thank everyone who has commented. Good boxing, good vids and good dialogue makes for one hell of a thread.

[BoZz]

Pac is great in defending his excuse for not taking the test.

First he said : Me very good congressman me take all test me not scared of test

then the pacfarts rejoiced because they really thought he is.

Then a few days ago paccy said: Me no trust USADA..me very good man but me no can take test me scared..me like keep fight fixed top rank fights..sorry my fans but me lied to you because me know you are ******ed

[BoZz]

winning fights is all about defense..floyd is the master of the game..duckqiao defense is his big roided head...he's lucky his opponents are all weight drained and after round 6 they fight for dear life because they ran out of energy..that's why duckqiao won't fight anyone fresh and someone not coming from top rank who sold his soul to arum

[Brother Jay]

Charley Burley

I waited a while to see if anyone would bring up one of the most underrated and avoided boxers in the history of the sport. No one has. He was even avoided by the G.O.A.T. Ray Robinson. His defensive skills were said to be second to none. He is ... and this video is ... a real hidden treasure in the game! I know that boxing enthusiasts, students of the game and old schoolers are all going to love this!

Watch, learn and enjoy people!!!

[Rapid Counter]

I know im going to be hated for this but. I will never rate fighters who I havent seen extensively as great, but yet for the longest time we have all these old farts telling us how amazing these guys were when there is 1-2 grainy video's for their entire careers.

Boxing was so diffirent back then, level of competition was much lower, their technique was worse and how many of them took it like a full time job? Maybe the top of the top could afford to do it, and they fought dudes who worked 50 hours in a coal mine.

I know Boxing is a old-mans sport but I also know that if enough people say something for lots of years then it must be true right? Wrong.

I studied Sport Evolution, and I will say those guys were greats in their time they are NOTHING compared to todays fighter.

Today's fighter is better educated, better trained, better prepared, has better medical access.

Todays boxing is less corrupt, alot more competitive since even a Journeyman makes enough money off boxing to train full time and truly great fighters are seperated by a very thin margin. and we also have FULL VIDEO Evidence for almost all fights of any modern fighter and dont cherry pick 1-2 Grainy Videos where you cant see anything.

Could they have been greats today? Maybe, theres ALOT more competition today and alot of fighters get weeded out thru the Amateurs so we only get best of the crop.

Back then? Heya Joe, I heard you were the toughest guy in town! You wanna fight Bobby from ******ia? Sure!

I cant wait until 20-30 years pass so most of the old dudes who are clinging on to the past are gone and we base fighters on their performances that we can actually see and rate them on, instead of rating people off 1-2 grainy videos and wivestales from the modern equivalent of *****s and *******s

/flame on

I don't agree with your school of thought at all. If you are great you are great. It doesn't matter what era. Maybe guys today are physically fitter, faster, stronger with modern day training and suppliments and training full time. But that don't change the facts that the older generation of great fighters were any less great. You take any great from the past, give him all the benefits of modern day training and proper nutrition and he will be as great as any modern day fighter.

The sweet science, hit and not get hit. That takes serious skills. Nicolino Locche had the ability to read his opponent so well he knew they were gonna throw a punch before they did. That kinda skill is hard to learn, no matter what era. Some things can't be taught, they can only be learned.

[Medved]

I don't agree with your school of thought at all. If you are great you are great. It doesn't matter what era. Maybe guys today are physically fitter, faster, stronger with modern day training and suppliments and training full time. But that don't change the facts that the older generation of great fighters were any less great. You take any great from the past, give him all the benefits of modern day training and proper nutrition and he will be as great as any modern day fighter.

The sweet science, hit and not get hit. That takes serious skills. Nicolino Locche had the ability to read his opponent so well he knew they were gonna throw a punch before they did. That kinda skill is hard to learn, no matter what era. Some things can't be taught, they can only be learned.

Yes, but today you can go to some club shows and see some great fighters who will look amazing if you record 1-2 of their fights and nothing else, but put them into the ring with a Journeyman and they get screwed.

The level of competition back then was wack, it was such a huge gap, today its an entirely diffirent sport.

But Im not going to base my assumptions on someone with 1-2 grainy videos fighting in an era where the diffirence between #1 and #10 is like between #1 and #500 today.

Like I said back then competition was "soft", dudes werent properly trained, most had jobs, ****ty medical equip. How many dudes who had real talent were injured or went to war? Or had to work 50 hours a week in the mines to pay for their family?

It was like that in all the sports, as the years go on the level of competition will increase and increase to the point where the diffirence between #1 and #2 will be 0.1%.

Im saying this with a point from Sport Evolution point of view, as time passes on we get more fighters, better trained fighters, smarter fighters and the competion is CUt Throat where you gotta be the best.

Dont tell me back then there was a great competition, it was the top few guys fighting each other 10 times with a few bums thrown in.

Its like calling Jesse Owens the best Sprinter in the world! Maybe in 1965 but he will get whipped today, why? Because Technique got better, training got better, people make more $$$ so you can support a family from just Running and not having a job, this increases competition.

You want to see what happens when you got REAL competition to be better?

This:
100-Meter Record Progression
Time (secs.) Name/Country Date
9.77 Justin Gatlin, U.S. May 12, 2006
9.77 Asafa Powell, Jamaica June 14, 2005
9.79 Maurice Greene, U.S. June 16, 1999
9.84 Donovan Bailey, Canada July 27, 1996
9.85 Leroy Burrell, U.S. July 6, 1994
9.86 Carl Lewis, U.S. Aug. 25, 1991
9.90 Leroy Burrell, U.S. June 14, 1991
9.92 Carl Lewis, U.S. Sept. 24, 1988
9.93 Calvin Smith, U.S. July 3, 1983
9.95 (elec.) Jim Hines, U.S. Oct. 14, 1968
9.99 Jim Hines, U.S. June 20, 1968
10.0 Armin Hary, West Germany June 21, 1960
10.1 Willie Williams, U.S. Aug. 3, 1956
10.2 Jesse Owens, U.S. June 20, 1936
10.3 Percy Williams, Canada Aug. 9, 1930
10.4 Charles Paddock, U.S. April 23, 1921
10.6 Donald Lippincott, U.S. July 6, 1912

and This:



and this:

LONGJUMP WORLD RECORD PROGRESSIO
7.61 Peter O'Connor 5 August 1901
7.69 Edward Gourdin 23 July 1921
7.76 Robert LeGendre 7 July 1924
...
....
8.90 Bob Beamon 18 October 1968
8.95 Mike Powel30 August 1991

Check every olympic record, people are JUMPING higher, JUMPING LONGER.

Every record is broken in every sport.

But Boxing is special right? WRONG.

While those guys were the best of their era and fought who they had you cant call them the greatest fighters, because they arent, not even close.

Its like saying a dude who held a record in 1911 for high jump is ATG High Jumper when his record got broken by over a meter?

Its like saying Jesse Owens is ATG #1 when Usain Bolt smoked his record like it was a big jamaican spliff.

but somehow Boxing is this magical place where dudes who fought in softer competition with worse technique/training/doctors were somehow these great beasts?

Like I said, Its only these old dudes who are 60,70 years old hyping up the old fighters and brainwashing people, most havent even seen them fight but still praise them. Its like Religion, spread a fairy tale long enough and people will believe it to be true, I mean if someone says something for 30 years then it must be true right?

Once those old geezers go away we can finally judge fighters on work we have evidence of and their opponents, how they were trained,judged,reffed, and their opponents, how good their pedigree is,etc. Oh and we will have actual evidence instead of hearsay and a 20 sec grainy video to call someone ATG

[TheGreatA]

Obviously a man is bound to get better at running 100 meters if he repeats that feat for a hundred years. But boxing is a bit more complicated than that. First of all it's a combat sport, and you pay dearly for every mistake you make. Not everyone is willing to pay that price in today's world, whereas in the old times boxing was arguably the best option for a capable athlete.

We are very fortunate that there actually doesn't exist just a "few grainy films" of the old days, because boxing was one of the most frequently filmed sports of its era and the collectors have kept those films in condition since. You can actually view 50+ year old bouts in high definition if you really put up an "effort" and go on youtube for example, instead of being a victim of your own ignorance.

But if watching black & white does not please you, go back 30 years to the era of Ray Leonard, Roberto Duran and Marvin Hagler. Now a track & field athlete from those times would not necessarily make it today without receiving all the modern training & equipment, but it's difficult to make a case for Ray Leonard being blown out by a Victor Ortiz for example. Obviously with the best against the best, Leonard vs Mayweather, we would have a competitive fight on our hands.

While Owens was running on a sandfield with what were probably homemade shoes, the equipment for boxers hasn't changed (aside from 15 rounds being changed to 12 rounds nowadays).

How many boxers of this calibre have been around in recent years (aside from Roy Jones maybe?):



And the opponent being clowned looks rather capable a few years back against Sonny Liston:



In case you made it that far, yes he threw 6 left hooks in the span of about a second. These guys could fight and would be a handful for fighters today.

[Brother Jay]

Yes, but today you can go to some club shows and see some great fighters who will look amazing if you record 1-2 of their fights and nothing else, but put them into the ring with a Journeyman and they get screwed.

The level of competition back then was wack, it was such a huge gap, today its an entirely diffirent sport.

But Im not going to base my assumptions on someone with 1-2 grainy videos fighting in an era where the diffirence between #1 and #10 is like between #1 and #500 today.

Like I said back then competition was "soft", dudes werent properly trained, most had jobs, ****ty medical equip. How many dudes who had real talent were injured or went to war? Or had to work 50 hours a week in the mines to pay for their family?

It was like that in all the sports, as the years go on the level of competition will increase and increase to the point where the diffirence between #1 and #2 will be 0.1%.

Im saying this with a point from Sport Evolution point of view, as time passes on we get more fighters, better trained fighters, smarter fighters and the competion is CUt Throat where you gotta be the best.

Dont tell me back then there was a great competition, it was the top few guys fighting each other 10 times with a few bums thrown in.

Its like calling Jesse Owens the best Sprinter in the world! Maybe in 1965 but he will get whipped today, why? Because Technique got better, training got better, people make more $$$ so you can support a family from just Running and not having a job, this increases competition.

You want to see what happens when you got REAL competition to be better?

This:
100-Meter Record Progression
Time (secs.) Name/Country Date
9.77 Justin Gatlin, U.S. May 12, 2006
9.77 Asafa Powell, Jamaica June 14, 2005
9.79 Maurice Greene, U.S. June 16, 1999
9.84 Donovan Bailey, Canada July 27, 1996
9.85 Leroy Burrell, U.S. July 6, 1994
9.86 Carl Lewis, U.S. Aug. 25, 1991
9.90 Leroy Burrell, U.S. June 14, 1991
9.92 Carl Lewis, U.S. Sept. 24, 1988
9.93 Calvin Smith, U.S. July 3, 1983
9.95 (elec.) Jim Hines, U.S. Oct. 14, 1968
9.99 Jim Hines, U.S. June 20, 1968
10.0 Armin Hary, West Germany June 21, 1960
10.1 Willie Williams, U.S. Aug. 3, 1956
10.2 Jesse Owens, U.S. June 20, 1936
10.3 Percy Williams, Canada Aug. 9, 1930
10.4 Charles Paddock, U.S. April 23, 1921
10.6 Donald Lippincott, U.S. July 6, 1912

and This:



and this:

LONGJUMP WORLD RECORD PROGRESSIO
7.61 Peter O'Connor 5 August 1901
7.69 Edward Gourdin 23 July 1921
7.76 Robert LeGendre 7 July 1924
...
....
8.90 Bob Beamon 18 October 1968
8.95 Mike Powel30 August 1991

Check every olympic record, people are JUMPING higher, JUMPING LONGER.

Every record is broken in every sport.

But Boxing is special right? WRONG.

While those guys were the best of their era and fought who they had you cant call them the greatest fighters, because they arent, not even close.

Its like saying a dude who held a record in 1911 for high jump is ATG High Jumper when his record got broken by over a meter?

Its like saying Jesse Owens is ATG #1 when Usain Bolt smoked his record like it was a big jamaican spliff.

but somehow Boxing is this magical place where dudes who fought in softer competition with worse technique/training/doctors were somehow these great beasts?

Like I said, Its only these old dudes who are 60,70 years old hyping up the old fighters and brainwashing people, most havent even seen them fight but still praise them. Its like Religion, spread a fairy tale long enough and people will believe it to be true, I mean if someone says something for 30 years then it must be true right?

Once those old geezers go away we can finally judge fighters on work we have evidence of and their opponents, how they were trained,judged,reffed, and their opponents, how good their pedigree is,etc. Oh and we will have actual evidence instead of hearsay and a 20 sec grainy video to call someone ATG

I don't want to this thread to get hijacked as its about defensive fighters, but I disagree with you based solely on the fact that today's fighters look terrible by the 10th round. Their conditioning is terrible and they have little to give.

Jack Johnson once competed 26 rounds in a fight scheduled for 45 rounds.

That alone just blows away your theory. Boxing matches used to go on for 15 rounds, not 12. Most of today's boxers would be dead trying to compete for that long. All you have to do is watch how poor they look in 10 round matches. Today's boxers look at the end of 12 round matches like yesterday's boxers looked after 15!

I understand the point you were making, but its doesn't fly in light of those facts concerning boxing.

Let's get back to defensive fighters, guys!

[MARKBNLV]

I know im going to be hated for this but. I will never rate fighters who I havent seen extensively as great, but yet for the longest time we have all these old farts telling us how amazing these guys were when there is 1-2 grainy video's for their entire careers.

Boxing was so diffirent back then, level of competition was much lower, their technique was worse and how many of them took it like a full time job? Maybe the top of the top could afford to do it, and they fought dudes who worked 50 hours in a coal mine.

I know Boxing is a old-mans sport but I also know that if enough people say something for lots of years then it must be true right? Wrong.

I studied Sport Evolution, and I will say those guys were greats in their time they are NOTHING compared to todays fighter.

Today's fighter is better educated, better trained, better prepared, has better medical access.

Todays boxing is less corrupt, alot more competitive since even a Journeyman makes enough money off boxing to train full time and truly great fighters are seperated by a very thin margin. and we also have FULL VIDEO Evidence for almost all fights of any modern fighter and dont cherry pick 1-2 Grainy Videos where you cant see anything.

Could they have been greats today? Maybe, theres ALOT more competition today and alot of fighters get weeded out thru the Amateurs so we only get best of the crop.

Back then? Heya Joe, I heard you were the toughest guy in town! You wanna fight Bobby from ******ia? Sure!

I cant wait until 20-30 years pass so most of the old dudes who are clinging on to the past are gone and we base fighters on their performances that we can actually see and rate them on, instead of rating people off 1-2 grainy videos and wivestales from the modern equivalent of *****s and *******s

/flame on